Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

[magellan]

You're welcome!

 

[Newlumen]

Because protected cell are expensive than unprotected... i strictly use an unprotected cells whenever i can.

 

[MrAl]

Hello there,

I dont know if this has been said or not yet but, some things will simply NOT run on protected cells because the protection circuit does not go up high enough to allow the proper current to flow. I dont think there are any protection circuits that go up to 30 amps for example, but i know they do go up to 10 amps. If you have a light that needs 12 amps, then you cant use a 10 amp battery can you, so you need to go to an 'unprotected' type of cell.

I only have one light like this an i take special precautions when using it and when charging the batteries. For example, when i turn the light 'off' i also rotate the body of the light by 1/2 to 1 full turn. That disconnects the battery cells from the light electronics. So i do not depends on the circuit to keep the light off and that is because the circuit to turn the light on and off is always active even with the light off because they use a momentary push button switch to turn the light on. But even if that wasnt the case, i still like knowing that my cells are completely disconnected from the circuit when i turn off.

I also keep a close eye on the charge process, never leaving the area even for a minute when they are on charge, but then again i do that with all of my Li-ion cells. I also have a chemical fire extinguisher within arms reach ready for any emergency situation.

But to the point of the thread, the main reason that i know of for using unprotected cells is that you have a device that simply will not run on protected cells so you must purchase unprotected cells and use them. Otherwise, you can not use that device because it will keep tripping the protection circuit unless maybe you have a "low" setting you can try.

 

[lion504]

I use unprotected cells when I know the light has LVP. I have an XTAR charger, so good there too.

My question is about Malkoff P60 drop-ins. Gene's web page says "This dropin was primarily designed for use with a single Li-ion protected rechargeable cell."
I asked him whether it was Ok to use unprotected cells and his response was "It [the unprotected cell] won't harm the drop-in." LOL!!! I was more worried about the humans using the drop-in...

Anyways, can anyone confirm if Malkoff drop-ins have LVP, so safe to use unprotected? I can't find it on his website... Thanks.

 

[archimedes]

....
Anyways, can anyone confirm if Malkoff drop-ins have LVP, so safe to use unprotected? I can't find it on his website... Thanks.

No, not as such.

 

[fivemega]

Because protected cell are expensive than unprotected...

So you don't even value your own safety for $2 extra ???
===============

some things will simply NOT run on protected cells because the protection circuit does not go up high enough to allow the proper current to flow.

Do you think I would call this situation [SIZE=+5]FINE[/SIZE]?
I repeatedly mentioned, [SIZE=+3]IF PROTECTED CELL WORKS FINE[/SIZE]
==============

Gene's web page says "This dropin was primarily designed for use with a single Li-ion protected rechargeable cell."
I asked him whether it was Ok to use unprotected cells and his response was "It [the unprotected cell] won't harm the drop-in."

Because his concern is your safety and not the drop in module.
In most cases, drop in can be replaced but human health can not. So your safety is first.

 

[WalkIntoTheLight]

So you don't even value your own safety for $2 extra ???
===============

Do you drive?

 

[lion504]

Because his concern is your safety and not the drop in module.
In most cases, drop in can be replaced but human health can not. So your safety is first.

I think you make some good points in your posts to this thread. But wouldn't adding LVP to the light (in this case the P60 drop-in) be evidence of caring about the user/customer's safety?

Is there a good reason why the manufacturer would make the customer to rely on the protection circuit in the battery, which many have pointed out can be unreliable? Other than keeping production costs down?

 

[archimedes]

I think you make some good points in your posts to this thread. But wouldn't adding LVP to the light (in this case the P60 drop-in) be evidence of caring about the user/customer's safety? Is there a good reason why the manufacturer would make the customer to rely on the protection circuit in the battery, which many have pointed out can be unreliable? Other than keeping production costs down?

So that you aren't suddenly and unexpectedly without light (running primaries) , which could perhaps be dangerous, in certain situations.

It also allows for more flexibility in power sources, as many of these dropins have a relatively wide voltage range. This allows for some choice in number and type of battery(s) which may be used.

A fixed voltage cutoff would essentially limit the user to a particular specified setup.

 

[lion504]

Got it. Malkoff drop-ins can use either multiple CR123s (up to 9 volts) or protected Li-Ions. Thanks.

 

[MrAl]

So you don't even value your own safety for $2 extra ???
===============

Do you think I would call this situation [SIZE=+5]FINE[/SIZE]?
I repeatedly mentioned, [SIZE=+3]IF PROTECTED CELL WORKS FINE[/SIZE]
==============

Because his concern is your safety and not the drop in module.
In most cases, drop in can be replaced but human health can not. So your safety is first.

Hi,

Well if it works "FINE" then it seems to me it would be your own choice or based on happenstance.
For example, if you did not have any protected cells left and you wanted to change your battery, you'd have to use one of your unprotected cells.
For a risk example, it would depend on if you think the risk of having a strip go up the side of the cell is more risky than using an unprotected cell. I assume you know how to handle unprotected cells here.
For another example, your flashlight has built in limiting.

Probably too many cases to mention here where you might want to use one in place of a protected cell.
Your little brother stole all of your protected cells and you need to go out that very night

 

[etc]

So imagine you are descending down a cave with a headlamp on and a spare light in your backpack along with spare cells.

Suddenly that nice headlight quits. The Li-ion battery is dead and you are plunged into complete darkness.

Now you have to run an emergency battery swap or retrieve the spare light. All while you are hanging on some rock.

Protected Li-ions are not an option for anyone that deals with danger where situations can escalate quickly.

Either primary 123s make tons more sense - they are light and cheap. Or unprotected Li-ions - they store more energy and gradually decline towards oblivion,giving you plenty of time to figure out when to swap.

I can pretty much tell when my lights hit 3.0V and 2.8V just by looking at the output. Over the last decade, since I use the same lights pretty much, I learned to tell when I am close to 2.5V -- and long before I get there. It's not that hard.

 

[Gauss163]

So imagine you are descending down a cave with a headlamp on and a spare light in your backpack along with spare cells. Suddenly that nice headlight quits. The Li-ion battery is dead and you are plunged into complete darkness. Now you have to run an emergency battery swap or retrieve the spare light. All while you are hanging on some rock. Protected Li-ions are not an option for anyone that deals with danger where situations can escalate quickly [...]

I don't follow your logic. How does the claim in the final sentence follow from what you wrote prior to it?

 

[fivemega]

Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine ?

What I understand from "works fine" is: doesn't have any of problems mentioned above.

My logic says not to drive a road with little gas and no gas station.

If you really need a light for any task, make sure you have more than double run time of what you need and carry extra battery or backup light.

 

[desert.snake]

This is all a little strange thread. It is useless to consider abstract cases of using protected or unprotected cells. Too many variables. I would suggest taking a specific flashlight that has certain parameters, for example, SF 6РХ. Take a specific person who uses it, that is, choose a method of use (permanent / short-term / mixed), a charging method (what specific device is used, how often recharging occurs, is there any system in it). It is only later to determine what type of cell is suitable or not suitable for a specific combination of "a specific person + a specific lantern".

Specifically, I moved from the protected elements of the Eagletac 16650 to the unprotected Sony VTC5 and further, further, as the lamps changed. These particular Eagletac have an interesting feature - when they are almost depleted and used with an unregulated lamp, the lamp begins to flicker. I am replacing the battery and the lamp protection has not yet worked. Very good cells for standard lamps.

I had protected IMRs from Olight, their protection circuitry died because I didn't bother to check the SF A2 flashlight, which was drawing more current out of them than they could handle + heated to a very high temperature due to the lamp. I just cut off the protection with a knife and continued to use in other flashlights with power consumption suitable for these batteries.

Now I have a bunch of protected and unprotected 18650s. They all work great, since none of my flashlights draw more current than the rated current of the cells and the flashlight itself gives signals (either by blinking or dimming, or by a fuel gauge, or by a small screen with a voltmeter) that it's time to change the batteries, and not one goes below 3.2-3.4 volts when I replace it with a fresh one.

Times have changed, now there are already protected elements that can withstand 20 A for a long time - Acebeam ARC18650H-310A IMR 18650 3100 mAh 20A 3.7V PCB 4x MOSFET
But I still have a knife to cut off the protection board if she suddenly dies before her cell.