A2 an Engineering Marvel? + CPF then & now

Size15s said:
"No, they were a bit too off-topic for me to answer in this thread. If you start thread that you would like my input on, for examples in the Cafe, please let me know."

As you wish...

So I'm starting a new thread here, copying relevant text from the previous thread about the A2. I generally prefer to add on to existing threads than start new ones, and was advised crossposting isn't approved of, but apparently it'd help if I made exceptions to those provisos for this topic.

and also:
"The reason I suggest that we don't go into the A2 as an engineering marvel in this thread is that if you search CPF you'll find it's been discussed before. If you have further questions or comments after reading those threads then you can post on them."

----my 1st message---
This is probably the thread you had in mind. If there's more than that, like I said, take a minute or two and find a link or a search term. I used "A2 engineering marvel" in AND mode and found only this thread, "A2 advanced" got me a couple but only the one above seemed to talk about the A2 in depth.

I do have more comments... For one, I'm happy that you find SureFire to be near perfection, both the lights and the company. Please suffer those like me who really like SF, but don't find them without fault.

Does the A2 have faults? Sure. Unregulated LEDs are fine, but it's not an ideal shape nor does it have a great switch for my use. For EDC, the rubber button is just a bad idea, unless it's more wear-resistant than I think. Or, for all I know, they'll replace it under warranty if it does wear out.

I'd have no trouble gripping a metal button, esp. not with the kind of knurling they use. Dual buttons like on the Brinkmann rechargeable (like a mag with one button behind the other) would be ideal, and the light could be shorter to boot. The Streamlight TT makers are ingenious though, they found a switch I like MUCH less than the A2s. On-Off-On-Off instead of On-On-Off? What were they thinking? Were they thinking is more like it...

I do understand I'm buying a tactical light and it is almost entirely aimed at a paramilitary audience, but what the heck, I'm using it, and its tactical nature is a drawback. Worth it, I obviously think, but a drawback nonetheless.

I'll also posit that it's not the "first regulated incandescent". How long have Wille's LVRs been on the market? Seems 3-4 years or more. They're also $20.

As for the cost, well... $20 for a 2xcr123 Xe&H light w/tailswitch is fair, $20 for a 6 to 4.5V regulator, a generous $20 for 3 LEDs, and I come up with it being worth $60. Throw in another $20-$30 for the glass lens and SF "quality touches" and I still think it's overpriced at anything more than $100. It's even harder to justify $25 for the lamp.

Yes, I also think Arc is overpriced. Having worked for, and subsequently having been laid off by, a small company, I won't argue that their prices are much more than it takes them to stay in business and make a living at it. I will say that it's a crying shame that Dorcy or Garrity or Mag isn't the company making the A2.

BTW, you said "I never advise that people mention CPF when talking to flashlight retailers. CPF is a shade of it's former self and the reaction you got is typical across the industry in my experience." in another thread. What do you mean by "a shade of it's former self"? There used to be more experts on here or what?

---

You're right, there'd have to be something pliable somewhere in there. There are some really tough rubbers, though, like EPDM. I have to wonder, in the case of their O-rings, why they warn against petroleum jelly - are they not using nitrile rubber? Or is it just that the silicone grease they recommend is a better lubricant and thus prevents wear.

I don't know, maybe the button is just getting lint on it. Here's the situation:


I think as long as I keep the (plastic) zipper in the groove it'll be fine, dunno if it actually is wearing at the rubber significantly when the zipper is touching it.

The unreg'd LEDs are fine. Lithiums have a pretty flat discharge curve, at least when you're not whomping them with 1.5A loads like the incandescent does. I use an X5 to get the dregs out of the spent cells...they only have a few hundred mAh left.

I saw the switch I wish the A2 had, and you'll probably kill me for saying it, but it's on the Energizer Trailfinder (more robust version of the ArcWhite). The switch is a slide switch with a CCFL-Off-LED arrangement. Off-LED-INC would be even better perhaps. Make the switch SureFire-spiffy and yeah, that would be I-deal.

-----

Agreed. I'll just keep using the Archer Professional Lube Gel and hope for the best. It and vaseline haven't ever caused me any trouble with O rings before. The Lube Gel has the advantage that it doesn't get runny at higher temperatures.

Wonder if I "scared off" Size15s with that long post...there were a few questions in there, like about the CPF being a shade of its former self, that I'm curious to hear the answer to.

The cost breakdown, well, I think it makes sense but wouldn't expect a SF aficionado to dignify it with a reply.

Re: A2 an

I will assume that the above post is asking about how CPF has changed since it was created, and why I do not advise people to mention CPF when communicating with flashlight manufacturers.

There are some flashlight manufacturers and dealers who make it their business to associate themselves with CPF - Arc is perhaps the best known and I admit, I do not know the names of the others. This is great. Interacting with those who provide us with our hobby.

And then there are those manufacturers who look down their noses at CPF - If you were to mention CPF it would not open doors for you, rather it closes them. And we don't appear to be trying to build bridges between us. Too many manufacturers stay away from publically visiting CPF and getting involved. I believe we are seen to be whining penny pinching internet nerds - not least because two manufacturer reps have pretty much said exactly that.

But I recall it wasn't alway this way. I guess that in the old days of CPF we used to talk more about flashlights and their uses rather than prices.

Now-a-days our modders are superb - some of them producing quality products significantly superior to many flashlight companies. CPF today tends to make/mod our own rather than be involved with manufacturers to change their products.

So I urge caution when playing the CPF card when talking to people working for flashlight companies. Customer Service and Reps especially - try to find their opinion of CPF without admitting you're a member. In some cases CPF will do the opposite which is fantastic.

CPF has changed. Perhaps because we have grown in membership and become a little bit more mainstream. Sometimes I read threads that show just why more flashlight manufacturers don't come here to play. I believe we are missing out.

Al

Re: A2 an

Al, you're right. Our modders are truly amazing these days! And the speed of progress here is phenomenal! I am really proud of them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

For your other thoughts ... I do not know ... I have been around for one year now and probably missed the "golden age" you are referring to.
But ... maybe the other manufacturers are "afraid"?
How could they compare with our modders or top notch companies like SF or Arc? We have grown, and grown has the quality standard and demand here on CPF, and lots of the "normal" companies just can't keep up.
Perhaps it is just that they would not like to "look up" to CPF but would prefer to "look down" on us? Admitting someone other is superior isn't always easy and can be even harder for a professional company to admit, marketing-wise and the like.

Just my .02 EUR

bernhard

Well I know that in general tech support reps can be derisive of those who "think they know something", mostly because of a few customers who don't and yet have an attitude about it.

"I guess that in the old days of CPF we used to talk more about flashlights and their uses rather than prices."

Well, it's been said an engineer is someone who can do for $1 what anyone can do for $2, so in discussing engineering, price is not a frivolous or "whiney" priority.

That said, naturally, anyone selling things is likely to be defensive about the amount they charge.

i do recall some accounts posted of a surefire cs rep getting annoyed at cpfers, and i think it might have to do with some of us who might expect too much out of the lights we buy, to the point where we take advantage of the goodwill of some companies. e.g. changing an L4 due to its less-than-white tint, which is something that surefire doesn't guarantee like arc does. requesting replacement parts due to HA anodizing mismatches, machining marks, etc.

perhaps some of us might have sounded too pompous when dealing with cs reps of various companies, using cpf as a sort of trump card...i really don't know. i'm just saying that with so many registered members that now make up cpf, its not possible for everyone of us to be at our best behavior, and maybe a few of us might have unintentionally left a bad impression on some of the flashlight manufacturers out there, which those companies then associated strongly with cpf.

disclaimer: i really don't have any specific incidents or individuals to name and i don't mean to implicate anyone with my post and this is purely my humble opinion from past observations so no offence meant to anyone if any was taken /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
chamenos said:
i do recall some accounts posted of a surefire cs rep getting annoyed at cpfers, and i think it might have to do with some of us who might expect too much out of the lights we buy, to the point where we take advantage of the goodwill of some companies. e.g. changing an L4 due to its less-than-white tint, which is something that surefire doesn't guarantee like arc does. requesting replacement parts due to HA anodizing mismatches, machining marks, etc.

perhaps some of us might have sounded too pompous when dealing with cs reps of various companies, using cpf as a sort of trump card...i really don't know. i'm just saying that with so many registered members that now make up cpf, its not possible for everyone of us to be at our best behavior, and maybe a few of us might have unintentionally left a bad impression on some of the flashlight manufacturers out there, which those companies then associated strongly with cpf.

disclaimer: i really don't have any specific incidents or individuals to name and i don't mean to implicate anyone with my post and this is purely my humble opinion from past observations so no offence meant to anyone if any was taken /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been keeping quite in this thread, however I need to speak up and dissagree with you here. When someone spends as much as they do on a top-end product, the expectation is a product of excellance without flaws. For $150, the flashlight better meet expectations and if not, the buyer should not be looked at as being too picky (as often times they are).

I remember making a comment about how an LED flashlight I reviewed was overdriving the LEDs. The mfgr (just for clarity: NOT Surefire) posted a fairly pissy response here on CPF about how they had soooooo much experience with LEDs and that we (CPFer's) didn't know what we were talking about.

Instead of a customer service oriented response, clearly explaining how this was taken into consideration and the LEDs were heatsinked adequately to compensate, we were basically "snapped at" and told we were wrong.

Sometimes it makes you wonder how much of the bad CPF/MFGR relations are CPFer's faults for pointing out potential problems with designs, wishlists, etc, and how much of it is THEIR fault for not knowing how to respond in a clear, non-agressive, diplomatic, cutomer-centric manner.

Getting pissy at CPF isn't going to be all that productive. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and CPFers are the flies they should want to catch as customers.

nascar: i don't disagree with you though...i do agree that for the amount we spend on our lights, the lights we buy should meet our expectations. however, since the L4 (for e.g.) isn't guaranteed to have a very white led like the arc LS, technically surefire does have the right to deny exchanges or returns based on that reason. its kinda like signing a contract and adhering to the terms and conditions.

of course that isn't how surefire handles its customer service, or they would be losing customers quickly since they cater largely to a niche market, at least for the non-military or LEO customers. nonetheless the way some of us might have dealt with the customer service representatives of various companies might have either annoyed them or worn their patience thin with our possibly overly-demanding expectations.

in any case cpf'ers are human, and so are the customer service represenatatives we deal with so occasional conflicts or disagreements are unavoidable, and grudges or prejudices might be held as a result. i'm just trying to point out some possible causes of these prejudices some manufacturers might have against cpf, whether they might be valid or not.

again, this is just MHO...i mean no offence to you or anyone else at all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I can recall doing a first impression on the merits and sophistication of the A2 after getting to see one at a dinner with PK. After that, the A2 was very slow in getting out to market. When there is a void in information, including specs and pricing, there seems to be a tendency for some of the CPF membership to fill the void with speculation and expectation. This is natural I suppose, especially with a group who is in the want, if not need, to know everything there is to know about flashlights! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif The A2 was critiqued to the Nth degree before it was ever seen!

There is brilliance and stupidity, insight and ignorance, market savvy and utopian foolishness all expressed here on CPF. I would assume that for any manufacturer of flashlights, CPF is a knife that cuts both ways and there is likely a danged if you do and danged if you don't relationship with any connection to CPF. The path of least conflict is probably that of "No Comment" and no contact. Anymore, even devout and active members of CPF have a hard time following the activity here. I can't imagine any employee of a flashlight manufacturer with real work to do also keeping up with CPF. Even Peter G., who is likely the most involved manufacturer is probably not in touch with much of what transpires beyond the Arc forum. How could he be.

What is the perception of a flashlight manufacturer of CPF and its members? I could see this perception ranging from a full spectrum of possibilities depending on what threads might have been read and tempered by past experiences with self proclaimed CPF members. I do think it's safe to say that the knowledge and interest of flashlights of a CPFer goes well beyond that of a typical flashlight consumer; the market most of the manufacturers are targeting. This includes all tactical, niche and casual use categories. There is probably a wealth of insight and information within the CPF archives for a manufacturer as well as an abundance of static and un realistic demands and expectations.

Of utmost significance, I think, is the fact that CPF is public. Most businesses do not discuss their future plans or even present practices in an open and public arena. To be effective, I think a manufacturer needs to know what their market thinks and wants but perhaps not to the extent of entering into an open dialogue with their market. At the "retail counter" the customer stands on one side and the seller is on the other. The customer is rarely invited to come around the counter.

- Don

Good points Don.

I probably should stay out of this conversation...

When a customer comes in or calls and they say they are on the CPF, I want to know their handle, etc. This is because we see the CPF as an important place for us to be. I get excited talking to people from the CPF. Can I get a witness! Yeah.

But for most other manufacturers, their products or mission just don't match as well to the CPF mentality.

Personally, I welcome suggestions, questions about why we did x instead of y, etc. Sometimes if I sound brief it is either because I already answered the question n times and you are driving me absolutely crazy or I am busy, etc.

Btw, we don't expressly guarantee tint but it is covered under the 30-day "satisfaction guarantee". SF is the same way. Of course, and as much as possible, I prefer to fix the problem in the upfront quality and not wait and catch it with the guarantee. At least, that's the plan... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This comment from above caught my eye:

"Yes, I also think Arc is overpriced. Having worked for, and subsequently having been laid off by, a small company, I won't argue that their prices are much more than it takes them to stay in business and make a living at it. I will say that it's a crying shame that Dorcy or Garrity or Mag isn't the company making the A2. "

Short answer on Arc and prices: I doubt seriously that you know our situation. However, I think I can understand your situation. Whereas only one of us is a manufacturer, both of us are consumers. => The product does not have enough value to you to justify the price. You want it, but you don't feel like paying that price.

This thought seems to continue with your next statement about wishing some discount manufacturers (2 who make most of their product overseas and one who utilizes lawsuits and widescale automation that is caustic to innovation) would make niche products like you desire. Short answer: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If dreaming things made them true, then would Edison have said, "genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration"?

I know, I know. The wiser of you are always telling me to just ignore this stuff. But I am in this relationship with the CPF for the long haul. Wouldn't a family member be interested in all their siblings?

Seeing how I already am in trouble, I'll tell you what I think of the A2... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Paul showed it to me at the 2002 SS and I didn't think much of it initially. I was more interested in his pure LED products. Later, I took a closer look at the A2 and my respect for it increased. SF has done this idea better than anyone else but it is still a transistional product. It has further demostrated that there is a market for flashlights with multiple brightness settings (longer run times possible), good brightness, lithium batteries, regulation and multiple beam angles. The first four are easy, the last one is a bit more difficult. I don't like how the LEDs interfere with the reflector. But the effect is not terrible by any stretch. Just being nit-picky. Another variation (already demostrated) would be to place 3mm LEDs around the peripheary of the main reflector. This would clean up the reflector, isolate the LEDs from the high heat of the incan and improve the wide angle effect. Yes, the reflector would be smaller for a given housing, but the effect would be similiar to perferating a larger reflector in the same housing. Gantry designs are another variation, but they suffer when transitioned to pure LED because of a more constrained heat path. A fourth method is to use a SE and place the aux LEDs in the dead zone above the emitter (modified gantry). The problem with that is the SEs are not very common and would contrain manufacturing. The 5th idea is to have the auxes perferate the outside of the bezel. This method has a lot going for it but you loose the coaxial effect. Minor in my opinion but testing may prove otherwise.

At any rate, the A2 is a logical evolution of the flashlight. It is similiar to the idea of a hybrid automobile. By combining old with new, you get the best of both. Eventually, the new (BEV, et al) will completely replace the old. The hybrids will have assisted in this transistion of course.

Peter

i couldn't agree more /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif i think several issues are being addressed here though:

1. why is cpf perceived to be "a shade of its former self"
2. why don't more flashlight manufacturers particpate actively in cpf
3. the A2

for the record i only attempted to address no.1 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif i believe don has addressed all three succinctly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

peter: i stand corrected regarding the issue of the guarantee on tint; i did get the impression it was guaranteed from what i'd read on the forums though.

[ QUOTE ]
Gransee said:
I probably should stay out of this conversation...

When a customer comes in or calls and they say they are on the CPF, I want to know their handle, etc. This is because we see the CPF as an important place for us to be. I get excited talking to people from the CPF. Can I get a witness! Yeah.

But for most other manufacturers, their products or mission just don't match as well to the CPF mentality.

Personally, I welcome suggestions, questions about why we did x instead of y, etc. Sometimes if I sound brief it is either because I already answered the question n times and you are driving me absolutely crazy or I am busy, etc.

Btw, we don't expressly guarantee tint but it is covered under the 30-day "satisfaction guarantee". SF is the same way. Of course, and as much as possible, I prefer to fix the problem in the upfront quality and not wait and catch it with the guarantee. At least, that's the plan... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This comment from above caught my eye:

"Yes, I also think Arc is overpriced. Having worked for, and subsequently having been laid off by, a small company, I won't argue that their prices are much more than it takes them to stay in business and make a living at it. I will say that it's a crying shame that Dorcy or Garrity or Mag isn't the company making the A2. "

Short answer on Arc and prices: I doubt seriously that you know our situation. However, I think I can understand your situation. Whereas only one of us is a manufacturer, both of us are consumers. => The product does not have enough value to you to justify the price. You want it, but you don't feel like paying that price.

This thought seems to continue with your next statement about wishing some discount manufacturers (2 who make most of their product overseas and one who utilizes lawsuits and widescale automation that is caustic to innovation) would make niche products like you desire. Short answer: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If dreaming things made them true, then would Edison have said, "genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration"?

I know, I know. The wiser of you are always telling me to just ignore this stuff. But I am in this relationship with the CPF for the long haul. Wouldn't a family member be interested in all their siblings?

Seeing how I already am in trouble, I'll tell you what I think of the A2... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Paul showed it to me at the 2002 SS and I didn't think much of it initially. I was more interested in his pure LED products. Later, I took a closer look at the A2 and my respect for it increased. SF has done this idea better than anyone else but it is still a transistional product. It has further demostrated that there is a market for flashlights with multiple brightness settings, good brightness, lithium batteries, regulation and multiple beam angles. The first four are easy, the last one is a bit more difficult. I don't like how the LEDs interfere with the reflector. But the effect is not terrible by any stretch. Just being nit-picky. Another variation (already demostrated) would be to place 3mm LEDs around the peripheary of the main reflector. This would clean up the reflector, isolate the LEDs from the high heat of the incan and improve the wide angle effect. Yes, the reflector would be smaller for a given housing, but the effect would be similiar to perferating a larger reflector in the same housing. Gantry designs are another variation, but they suffer when transitioned to pure LED because of a more constrained heat path. A fourth method is to use a SE and place the aux LEDs in the dead zone above the emitter (modified gantry). The problem with that is the SEs are not very common and would contrain manufacturing. The 5th idea is to have the auxes perferate the outside of the bezel. This method has a lot going for it but you loose the coxial effect. Minor in my opinion but testing may prove otherwise.

At any rate, the A2 is a logical evolution of the flashlight. It is similiar to the idea of a hybrid automobile. By combining old with new, you get the best of both. Eventually, the new (BEV, et al) will completely replace the old. The hybrids will have assisted in this transistion of course.

Peter

[/ QUOTE ]

As always Peter, thanks for the information. With all due respect, you need to logoff now and help Merri get these AA-lights out the door. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CPF then & now: I was just thinking, specifically about the cost concerns. The fact that we have more members is another matter. But, when were the "golden years"? Were they during the boom times a few years ago? I dare say that cost has become more of a concern for an awful lot more people than it used to be.

ARC finances: Whether I "know your situation" I suspect depends on the level of detail you're talking about. I figure you're not rolling in it and intending to skip out and retire in the Bahamas in the next few years. What I mostly meant to say is that while I wish the prices were lower, I don't think either Arc or SF are being run by greedy iceholes. A backhanded compliment, agreed, but by no means an accusation of overcharging.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm figuring the prices for Arc and SureFire are the way they are because of the cost of producing high quality flashlights in (relatively) low quantities in the U.S.A. and not because of higher than average profit margins for that type of product. Maybe SF is charging a premium for their name, I don't know. $25 light bulbs are pretty tough to countenance, but for all I know they have some guy blowing glass in a back room making them one at a time. Probably they get 'em from Carley, WA, or another mfgr. but I've seen their prices for custom products. Egads.

Oddly enough, the company I worked for , 4pi Analysis, sold its systems at a small fraction of the cost of other systems like it. But, then, I wasn't making flashlights.

The A2:
Sure, I know it's wishful thinking to hope I could buy a Mag A2, and if I could it would probably look more like this than being an EDC size.


It just frustrates me that none of the technologies in the A2 are all that exotic, especially the incandescent regulation that so often gets cited as a major breakthrough and a justification for the expense. It's a $20 part in low volume, guys! It's hardly recent. Putting it in a production flashlight is new, but it's not like SF is new to putting a circuit board in an aluminum tube with batteries on one end and a bulb/LED on the other.

Frankly, the high quality bulb and battieries are the most "marvelous engineering" I see in the thing. Electrically. Mechanically, again it's nothing new, but their bodies are impressively well made. Is the bulb really any better than the $5 one in the TT lights or the Brinkmann LX? I dunno, maybe...

Put it this way, the existance of things like the TT-2L make me feel like a $50 A2 is tantalizingly close to being possible. If I'm annoyed by people defending SFs prices, it's because it's a little insulting to scrimp and save to buy a luxury version of something and then have someone come on like they're as rich as the king of Kuwait and say "Hah, tis but a trifle." No, it's not. It's a ridiculously high price for what you get. The only reason to put up with it is: it's the only game in town.

---

I don't quite follow all you're saying about the ways of mounting LEDs in or around a central high-brightness element. Gantry arrangement?

Personally, I think having the LEDs in the reflector looks incredibly cool, and results in a (white LED) beam that is just what I want. I'm surprized it doesn't interfere with the incandescent, at least not so as I can tell.

You do bring up something that's been nagging me, though... how close to melting the LEDs does the A2 get when running incandescent for extended times? To me, that's the only drawback of the arrangement I can see so far, and it may not be a significant issue for all I know.

Everything else I wish were different about it, well, apart from the <blech> tactical pushbutton, comes down to the "size, brightness, runtime: pick any two" problem. One day there will be an LED that will be as bright and run at least twice as long, and be able to focus to a similar beam as the A2s incandescent (pretty wide focus, really) and that will provide all three.

My justification for CPF having changed is that I don't think I have (I continue to harp on about SureFires although I do mellow every once in a while /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) and yet I feel the vibe here has changed.

Don makes excellent points as always.

I've always been of the opinion that it's easier to get heard if you are on the inside and that CPF doesn't lend itself to getting invited or staying on the inside.

This approach obviously hasn't worked for me and SureFire since you don't see me carrying an M1000 do you? (I cried the day that was shelved) But I chip away at the corners (I called PK names when they named the L4 the L4 (silly name for a two cell SureFire I think)

When you break it down, the TT-2L and the A2 both have LEDs and a bulb in the same reflector and both have a means of selecting between the two. That's it.
The A2's switching mechanism is significantly different to any other flashlight switch that I'm aware of (other than other SureFires). The A2's regulated bulb output is the first of it's kind in a production flashlight that I'm aware of (never did get this one resolved btw). The A2's form factor lends itself to EDC for more then the TT-2L.

The pricing has much to do with the A2 being US R&D and US production whereas the TT-2L is mass market produced in Asia.

At this point it would be great to see a side-by-side photo of the A2 and TT-2L if anyone has one please!

With more people and more flashlights then ever before, how comes it's still so difficult to get photos?

What CPF needs is an online photographic database to which we can all submit photos for the viewing use of all.

Al

It really cracks me when people think SF's are over priced and trying to show us why. I never see post why a PM6 mod cost way to much it's like $150 and doesn't have a life time warrantee or an Arc LSH-P $160 or many other mods that cost I lot. Also if the A2 is so simple why is SF the only one with this technology? Streamlights attempt at an A2 is a joke IMO no regulation the switch sucks and the focus doesn't work not to mention the finish which I don't even think is HA II.

jtivat,

I take exception to your comment on a PM6 mod costing too much and not having a lifetime warranty. The ones I have sold were made in America by an American with limited resources, ability and efficiencies. These costs are passed on. And the lifetime warranty? When the light dies, that was its life! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Joking aside, I went to the mat a few times on trying to justify the A2. I won't bother going there again. If there are *excess* profits in the A2 then in a free enterprise system, someone else will come out with a comperable alternative to the A2 at a lower price. I won't hold my breath but I encourage others to do so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

- Don

When Don or Wayne make a mod for the CPF, they end up paying for the "privelidge". Don and Wayne both are incredibly generous. I wish I could be that generous but I would need a day job as well.

I wonder if the guys over at the bladeforums have conversations like this about their $400 folders. I think we get along better than every forum I have been to.

Sure, things have changed around here. That is normal as you grow in size. I think we have grown up quite nicely in my opinion. There will be teething pains every now and then, but nothing to wig out about. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Peter

The modders on here certainly have my attention.

I don't don't know whether their greatest asset is ingenuity or generosity. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif -Obviously these talented people aren't gettin' rich doing this fascinating stuff.

I'll also agree Don's comments were good. And that the isolation of business practices from consumer view is often frustrating, if understandably necessary. It's especially frustrating for technically minded types like me who'd love to know just out of curiousity what an A2 does cost to make and (to a lesser extent) what SF costs to run.

I don't know if I've been on the CPF as long as you, Size15s, but the "vibe" has definitely changed. Though, for me, it happened fairly suddenly with the whole sponsorship & lots of rules+enforcement thing. But no, that doesn't explain it all... and I can't quite put my finger on what it is. Still, if time's taken that je ne said quoi away, it's given me a much wider selection of ready-to-use modified and small vendor (e.g., Elektrolumens) lights to choose from, which is great as I don't feel able/willing to do the hard work of modding.

Never having seen a TT-2L in person... the A2 does have a better, though I dunno about more expensive, switch and a much nicer housing. And regulation, which was a selling point for me, I agree, but no great technological revolution. I wouldn't expect it to up the selling price of the light more than $20. The case is a lot of the cost. I mean, G2s for $25 and E2es for, what, $80 on a good sale? But, that follows close to my previous breakdown, $20 for the basic form, $40 for the SF touches, $20 regulator, $20 LEDs...$100, and it sells for $40 more than that and lists for $80 more.

I think there's a fundamental disconnect with my discussion of price and others' comments about mine... I'm not saying it's not a fair, as in market-clearing basic Capitalist Economics sense, price. Supply and demand and all that...what the market will bear and all that. Obviously it will bear it. Heck, I bought one. To an economist, end of argument, it's worth $150 to me.

And, I'm glad to have it, but feel about $50 of it was over and above what I feel it _should_ cost given what it does and how it's made. I feel a little "taken advantage of" because they're the only ones selling it, it's popular, and they can get away with a list price that high.

I dunno, I guess I'm being a bit vague. I'll face it that I don't know if they could, in fact, make a "fair profit", whatever that is, if they sold it for $100 (street price). Maybe they'd go broke doing that, maybe not, I just don't know.

It just seems to me, from looking at other flashlights, that:
a> Those features don't quite add up to the asking price
b> If they can't sell it for $100 and make a fair profit, then they're doing something inefficient, being greedy, some of both... or there's something about the A2 that really is $40 more expensive to do than it seems like from the sum of its parts.

Really, it's more of a gripe about how the price seems sitting from where I am, with the lack-of-income I've presently got. I bought it, I like it, I felt the pinch, and damn if it doesn't seem like they could have charged a little less. Feeling that way and buying it anyway I guess implies an amount of "dedication to the hobby" that gives me a feeling of cameraderie with the many others on here who have also bought lights that cost 50%, or more, what they thought they were worth in their heart-of-hearts.

IOW, I'm more saying "Wow, that cost a lot" and not so much "Those bastages, they're ripping me off!"

What I was kind of expecting to hear is "Yeah, it does cost more than I or anyone would really like, but it sure is a nice flashlight, it's the latest and greatest, congrats and I hope you enjoy it enough that you forget the cost." That and maybe some technical reasons or speculations as to where the $50 is missing in my cost breakdown.

Hence, I feel comfortable saying that Arc and most of the mods on here are "overpriced" in the same sense. In this sense, an item can be "overpriced" even if the seller is losing money selling it at that price. OK? I am not accusing people of greed. I'm wondering about it in SF's case, a little, but not at all for Arc or the modders.

When I say "overpriced" I mean that it offers, to me, with my budget, not enough flashlight-induced pleasure or lighting functionality to be worth the price. Hence, I complain, pine, wish, rationalize, etc.

But if I really want it anyway, if nothing else looks to be coming along that would be a better deal, and if I can justify the price to myself, I may buy an "overpriced" or "insanely expensive" item anyway. I'll just keep wishing it were available for a "reasonable" price.

e.g., Should any other company come out with an A2-like light for half the price, I shall rejoice and think the world is a better place.