What would be the perfect HDS?

[jrgold]

I apologize in advance, this is going to be an unpopular opinion on this site. I have been to the hds site many times, but i just can't pull the trigger. The build quality looks amazing, but i just can't justify the cost vs output. Many will say you don't need more, which is true. To me that's like a guy who drives a honda telling someone they shouldn't drive a Porsche. True it is likely unnecessary, but if someone wants to spend the money to have that extra power and engineering, they are paying for it. For the premium price they should get more. Others say it's not possible to increase output, but every other flashlight manufacturer on the planet has done it. Granted, the build qulIty of HDS is much higher, but for what they charge i expect that higher build quality and output. I am sure the guys at HDS could design something that's not going to explode. Engineering and design needs to keep up with the times. If hds just wants to remain a low output cr123 light they will be left behind. I personally think the lights are beautiful, and really admire the build quality, but i feel the only thing that has kept up with the times is their cost.


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[ChrisGarrett]

I apologize in advance, this is going to be an unpopular opinion on this site. I have been to the hds site many times, but i just can't pull the trigger. The build quality looks amazing, but i just can't justify the cost vs output. Many will say you don't need more, which is true. To me that's like a guy who drives a honda telling someone they shouldn't drive a Porsche. True it is likely unnecessary, but if someone wants to spend the money to have that extra power and engineering, they are paying for it. For the premium price they should get more. Others say it's not possible to increase output, but every other flashlight manufacturer on the planet has done it. Granted, the build qulIty of HDS is much higher, but for what they charge i expect that higher build quality and output. I am sure the guys at HDS could design something that's not going to explode. Engineering and design needs to keep up with the times. If hds just wants to remain a low output cr123 light they will be left behind. I personally think the lights are beautiful, and really admire the build quality, but i feel the only thing that has kept up with the times is their cost.


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My opinion is similar to yours, in that going back to early 2012, Henry's lights were innovative, but it was a 12-18 month wait and the outputs were anemic for what was being offered for a fraction of the cost.

Chris

 

[peter yetman]

Engineering and design needs to keep up with the times. If hds just wants to remain a low output cr123 light they will be left behind.

Maybe HDS don't mind being left behind. As Hogo said the lights were created for a purpose, The fact that their design doesn't suit some users may not worry them.
The lumen wars started a long time ago and HDS is still here, with what I imagine is a strong following.

I speak as another small manufacturer, who doesn't care if my goods don't appeal to everyone, and to whom world domination is complete anathema.

I've spent my life being told that with my attitude I'll never survive - I'm still here.

Oh, and to answer the question at the head of this thread, the perfect HDS is sitting in my pocket.
P

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Maybe HDS don't mind being left behind. As Hogo said the lights were created for a purpose, The fact that their design doesn't suit some users may not worry them.
The lumen wars started a long time ago and HDS is still here, with what I imagine is a strong following.

I speak as another small manufacturer, who doesn't care if my goods don't appeal to everyone, and to whom world domination is complete anathema.

I've spent my life being told that with my attitude I'll never survive - I'm still here.

Oh, and to answer the question at the head of this thread, the perfect HDS is sitting in my pocket.
P

Peter, don't get so wound up about it.

HDS might be perfect for you, but they're probably .00000009 percent of the 'flashlight community,' which is probably .0000009 of the total world population.

Chris

 

[ma tumba]

It has never crossed my mind that hds were made with caving in mind. After some consideration I do think that for this specific purpose it is truly great except that now I am puzzled why it was not created in the headlamp form factor in the first place.

I have been curious about the "light that gets you home" because I know that when I am lost in an *unknown* place in the woods or in the mountains I need a very different kind of light to find my way home or get rescued. Actually D4 is better for this purpose and I can have a few spares for half the price of an hds. But for a cave, I agree with the logo 100%.

So while I am going to keep my 140lm rotary forever and enjoy its quality and my memories, I don't see real life situations anymore where I may actually use it.

 

[lion504]

HDS might be perfect for you, but they're probably .00000009 percent of the 'flashlight community,' which is probably .0000009 of the total world population.

Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of companies making super bright lights today for the other .99999991.

To me that's like a guy who drives a honda telling someone they shouldn't drive a Porsche. For the premium price they should get more. Others say it's not possible to increase output, but every other flashlight manufacturer on the planet has done it.

I would buy a Porsche, but its GVWR is too low. Many other companies have figured out a 10000lb GVWR for less money... :shrug: I should get more for the premium price.

 

[WarriorOfLight]

Why aren't there Chinese coopies of the HDS? Think about that. HDS doesn't even patent anything.

I guess this can be answered easiely. The electronic and electrical design is kind of "tricky". Also the Software in the controller is not only 100 lines of C or C++ code. Is is a bigger piece of Software. That can not be that easy been "reverse engineered". I guess the Software is the hardest part. Reverse engineering of the mechanical parts, maybe electronic is capable, but the Software is in the controller, .... Securily protected.
The only light that can be compared IMO somehow with the HDS Clicky is the Liteflux LF2XT, LF3XT and LF5XT. And this lights are also complicated in design. I disassembled a LF2XT light engine long time ago due to a LED replacement, and the electronic design is definately a masterpiece...

But back to the initial question. For me the HDS is almost perfect. If the driver would work with 1.2V a single AA Body would be possible. That would be definately tha the best light ever, ever, ever, ever.... did I mentioned ever...? But even if this HDS will never come. The HDS is for me a reliable friend. I also do not need more than 200-300 Lumens for a EDC flashlight. Long time ago I was happy with 40 Lumens or less...

At all the "higher quality lighs" had less problems for me. I have some none working SWM, Jetbeam, Nitecore and Olight lights. They all have technical issues. The interesting point is my HDS lighs are all still working, also my Surefires. Seems like there is really a difference between a premium brand and other brands. But this is only my personal experience.

 

[lion504]

I guess this can be answered easiely.

Maybe. But I think Hogo's point was that HDS isn't too concerned because the manufacturing cost for the Chinese to create even a reasonable counterfeit of an e-switched rotary light is so prohibitively high that they don't even try. And since HDS market is only 0.0000009, the enthusiast community would likely quickly spot lesser quality fakes. Not so easy to crash a small wedding.

 

[WarriorOfLight]

Maybe. But I think Hogo's point was that HDS isn't too concerned because the cost for the Chinese to create a reasonable counterfeit is prohibitively high. And the enthusiast community would likely quickly spot lesser quality fakes. Not so easy to crash a small wedding.

The folks here at CPF does not like copied designs. I remember the discussion about the Niteye Zip20 and Spy007. But the folks outside of CPF doesnt care about copied stuff. Therefore the best protection is to make it not as easy. Software in Controller is normally well protected, if the protevtion is enabled. The biggest know how is therefore the Software part, not the hardware. At least that is my guess. I never disassembled a HDS completely in all pieces.

 

[DayofReckoning]

One thing I've learned, the hard way, is despite how many hard facts that are presented, no matter how many strawman arguments we pick apart and debunk, one is facing an uphill battle when debating a group that is Emotionally Invested within a product. The most stunning part of all of this is that it's a case of "facts don't care about your feelings" of the highest order.

One need not look any further than the cringe worthy response/explanation above put forth at the top of this thread on why the HDS's output is so poor, and the reason's they won't improve. Anyone with any type of knowledge and common sense can look at that explanation and see right through that, and draw their own conclusions.

I know I will be accused of trolling for my comments. The truth? The truth of the matter is, I fully support everyone's right to buy what they want with their money, but I've stood by and watched someone offer the same damn light, year after year after year, with no real measurable improvements other that some mumbo jumbo technical data that in the real world doesn't do a damn thing to make the light any better than the last, and then continue to charge more and more and more, despite other makers advancing and offering far more for your money. I don't like watching my fellow flashaholics, who work hard for their money, get milked over, and over, and over again, and be told that the price is justified, when the reality is there isn't a single redeeming quality that justifies that kind of price, and that many many others are offering a superior product for far less money.

The marketing campaign of HDS is nothing more than a house of cards, while at first glance it seems solid, but when viewed at the right angle, is as thin as playing cards, am I'm here to call out the BS after watching it being spewed for far too many years.

With that said, as I opened with, no real reason to waste anymore time combating the strawman's and falsehoods here, I've said my piece, and accepted that the truth is irreverent with those that are emotionally invested.

 

[wweiss]

Actually, Henry has produced some crazy-*** bright lights as one-offs for people who paid him to do it.
There isn't any design limitation in the HDS. Thinking that actually shows how little you really know about the light.
The limitations are programmed in by design. A tweak to the programming code and the light could be overdriven to the point the battery couldn't take it and it would explode... think Olight. They killed a guy when the light blew up in his mouth. Oops.
The limitations are put in by design.
The Rotary and Tactical are dual processor networked flashlights. Show me another like that.
Remember, the HDS is purpose built. That purpose is caving. Not showing off a 2000 lumen light for the 3 seconds it can actually put that number of lumens out before it drops down rapidly, degrades the emitter, and can potentially cause problems with poop batteries people use in their lights... and that battery problem is something HDS can not control... what the end user puts in the light they got from Alibaba or Ebay.

Why aren't there Chinese coopies of the HDS? Think about that. HDS doesn't even patent anything.

As I have said before many times, the biggest critics of HDS lights are those who have never owned or used one... and usually they are the most ignorant of the design.

Thanks very much for this education. Now I get it. I've had my NB45 rotary for only a year and never knew about the caving purpose. Or the dual processors. Or - all the other I've just enjoyed the performance and usefulness. Still wish I had at least a momentary bump to 500L.

Thanks again for your elucidation.

 

[lion504]

when debating a group that is Emotionally Invested within a product

You're kidding, right?

I don't like watching my fellow flashaholics, who work hard for their money, get milked over, and over, and over again, and be told that the price is justified, when the reality is there isn't a single redeeming quality that justifies that kind of price, and that many many others are offering a superior product for far less money.

Appreciate the concern. I'm very happy with my purchase of some redeeming qualities.

I've had my NB45 rotary for only a year...

I have a NB45 Rotary too! My favorite emitter! 3700k a close second.

Back on topic, can I wish for a modern HDS sporting one of those red/white emitters? When the current is reversed it runs red? That would be pretty sweet.

 

[LuxTacGear]

One thing I've learned, the hard way, is despite how many hard facts that are presented, no matter how many strawman arguments we pick apart and debunk, one is facing an uphill battle when debating a group that is Emotionally Invested within a product. The most stunning part of all of this is that it's a case of "facts don't care about your feelings" of the highest order.

One need not look any further than the cringe worthy response/explanation above put forth at the top of this thread on why the HDS's output is so poor, and the reason's they won't improve. Anyone with any type of knowledge and common sense can look at that explanation and see right through that, and draw their own conclusions.

I know I will be accused of trolling for my comments. The truth? The truth of the matter is, I fully support everyone's right to buy what they want with their money, but I've stood by and watched someone offer the same damn light, year after year after year, with no real measurable improvements other that some mumbo jumbo technical data that in the real world doesn't do a damn thing to make the light any better than the last, and then continue to charge more and more and more, despite other makers advancing and offering far more for your money. I don't like watching my fellow flashaholics, who work hard for their money, get milked over, and over, and over again, and be told that the price is justified, when the reality is there isn't a single redeeming quality that justifies that kind of price, and that many many others are offering a superior product for far less money.

The marketing campaign of HDS is nothing more than a house of cards, while at first glance it seems solid, but when viewed at the right angle, is as thin as playing cards, am I'm here to call out the BS after watching it being spewed for far too many years.

With that said, as I opened with, no real reason to waste anymore time combating the strawman's and falsehoods here, I've said my piece, and accepted that the truth is irreverent with those that are emotionally invested.

What is written above by Hogo that you don't seem to understand? Nobody forces you or anybody to buy their lights. HDS is one of the best flashlights in the world, period. The design is well proven and still up to date. The limitations put in place are well thought out and purposely so because it has to operate safely and reliably, every damn time. If you want higher lumens in a quality custom light, go with an Oveready Boss, simple as that.

 

[Random Dan]

One thing I've learned, the hard way, is despite how many hard facts that are presented, no matter how many strawman arguments we pick apart and debunk, one is facing an uphill battle when debating a group that is Emotionally Invested within a product. The most stunning part of all of this is that it's a case of "facts don't care about your feelings" of the highest order.

One need not look any further than the cringe worthy response/explanation above put forth at the top of this thread on why the HDS's output is so poor, and the reason's they won't improve. Anyone with any type of knowledge and common sense can look at that explanation and see right through that, and draw their own conclusions.

I know I will be accused of trolling for my comments. The truth? The truth of the matter is, I fully support everyone's right to buy what they want with their money, but I've stood by and watched someone offer the same damn light, year after year after year, with no real measurable improvements other that some mumbo jumbo technical data that in the real world doesn't do a damn thing to make the light any better than the last, and then continue to charge more and more and more, despite other makers advancing and offering far more for your money. I don't like watching my fellow flashaholics, who work hard for their money, get milked over, and over, and over again, and be told that the price is justified, when the reality is there isn't a single redeeming quality that justifies that kind of price, and that many many others are offering a superior product for far less money.

The marketing campaign of HDS is nothing more than a house of cards, while at first glance it seems solid, but when viewed at the right angle, is as thin as playing cards, am I'm here to call out the BS after watching it being spewed for far too many years.

With that said, as I opened with, no real reason to waste anymore time combating the strawman's and falsehoods here, I've said my piece, and accepted that the truth is irreverent with those that are emotionally invested.

You don't like HDS? Fine.
You want to post about their perceived shortcomings? Fine.
You want to recommend that people buy other lights instead? Fine.

But it's starting to seem like you have some personal vendetta going on. Just make your arguments and leave it at that. Insulting people by saying that they've been duped or don't care about the truth just because they don't share your opinions is childish. Please stop.

 

[lion504]

Off-topic comment moved to the HDS thread.

 

[ma tumba]

Actually I second the opinion that hds rotary would be the * THE* perfect 1xAA light. Its lumen output is just in the present AA range and the dual juice philosophy would be there (1.2/1.5V)

 

[lion504]

2000 lumen BOSS XP-L lux at 3m = 677 (18650) or 778 (18350).

325 lumen HDS 325 NLT lux at 3m = 485 (CR123).

Punching above it's weight?

 

[nbp]

Wait, what?! There are brighter flashlights out there that cost less than the HDS?! Why the heck didn't you guys tell me?! Here I bought these lights thinking they were great, but I didn't realize that the only thing that matters about a flashlight is how bright it is. I'm ashamed of you guys for tricking me and feel like a dummy now.
/sarcasm

Frankly, I find the insuation that I am too gullible and stupid to sift through facts and maketing fluff to figure out what I like and what a makes a good product insulting.

I'm with scout24. My only major gripe is, and always has been, a pleasing bezel down clip for the Rotary.

 

[wweiss]

You're kidding, right?



I have a NB45 Rotary too! My favorite emitter! 3700k a close second.

The NB45 is so good with CRI/colors, in the morning my main use of the HDS is to make damned sure my socks match.... It's caving in my closet without waking my wife...

 

[Modernflame]

I'd also love the ability to switch between the rotary and the clicky tail. I think that is in the works, though.