LED Search Light

Burgess said:

May I suggest . . . . . .

Instead of "requiring" run-time of 8 Hours,
just carry Extra Batteries !

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Of course you can suggest. That is what I came here looking for is suggestions from more experienced users and ideas about what lights might fit the need. Otherwise I would have to spend a month or more just studying up on what is available in the market and what all of the acronyms and abbreviations mean.

Reconsidering the length of usable use will mean looking over the suggestions again to see which ones would be the best fit in performance as a flood light and would last through a single night on 1 battery change. Keeping in mind that these would be for emergency use and to be available for that they would have to be carried by 2 of the 4 counselors on every trip. I have to find the sweet spot between weight and volume and adequacy of performance. That would bring several of the zoom focus ones back into consideration. I'll still be trying to reconcile performance to avoiding the need to carry too many different things. That would mean I would still prefer something that could operate on Lithium primary cells in a AA form factor. The lithium AAs would be usable in any of their AA equipment, would be less likely to leak, and would have good standby life before they were put into use. They certainly won't do them any good sitting on a shelf in camp which is why I used standby life instead of shelf life.

If I can identify a rechargeable flood light that would run on the same rechargeables as their regular service lights that would allow us to reduce our waste production which is a very popular idea with the Staff and Counselors.

You just had to go and open up the other end of this can of worms didn't you? I came here to learn but with all of the ideas being shared I'm drinking out of a fire hose. I just wanted one glass of lemonade with exactly the right mix. [He doesn't want much does he?]

Tom Horne

TD-Horne said:

Now that you say that I'm thinking that there may be something to pursue there, I have seen a couple of those in use on bicycles and they might work out as special purpose head lights. By buying a replacement hard hat harness or something similar it shouldn't be too hard to fit them comfortably on the top of your head. I'll check at some local bicycle repair shops since they're more likely to have the high quality ones. That would leave one hand for a narrow beam hand light to check out anything they picked up on the horrizontal flood light and the other to manage such things as their radio.

Tom Horne

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Good thought. Be aware though that (to my knowledge) most bike lights have thermals designed with higher airflows in mind. Bike mounted = lots of cold air to help keep the LED cool. You may find these lights to overheat and / or shut down when being handheld. Just something to bear in mind.

Tom,
I participated at ground zero during 9/11 in NYC. A few years later I decided to join my Community Emergency Response Team. CERT. During a "Wooded Area Search and Rescue" practice, it was my partner who found the dummy that was thrown into a ravine. I realized that none of my lights would be sufficient to find that dummy if it was fully dark. It was a daylight practice.

That's what brought me here to CPF. I asked for a wooded area Search and Rescue light.
I thought that I would be a big spender, and spend maybe $50, for a flashlight.

I settled on a Thrunite TN30 for about $250 it takes 3 x 18650 3400mah Liion batteries, and I wanted enough capacity to get me through the night at a relatively high output, so I bought 6 batteries @ $18 each. I also bought a battery charger, $60 one that would run off of a 12V A/C wall wart, or 12V output from my car. So this put me at about $450 with tax.

Of course I was led to the saying "Two is one, One is none" so I needed a backup light, and spare batteries. I found that a headlamp is also very helpful.

Then my son decided to join the team, so I got him set up. Within a month or two, I was into about $1000 in lights batteries and accessories.

Fortunately decent quality, lower cost lights have entered the market. 18650 Batteries cost half of what they were.

Here is a review of the TN30 by a well known and respected CPF member

At his site he compares individual batteries, and posts their capacities at different loads. One thing you may find is that alkalines perform well under very low load, but drop off miserably under load. If you want high lumen output on alkalines, you can expect that the initial output of the light will drop off dramatically within the first hour of use, often within the first 20-30 minutes.

The reasoning for getting the TN30 was that it was a triple LED that gave a floody beam, yet is focused enough to punch through some undergrowth/brush.

When searching in the woods, your head will be on a swivel. So although your floody light might light the periphery of your vision, you won't be LOOKING with your peripheral vision, you'll turn your head to look in that direction. Having a floody light may help another searcher who is beating the path 40-50 feet to your flank, provided that his light also has some spill.

I think you want a light that has a broad spot, and generous amount of spill. At the low end, a large die LED such as a Cree XML-2, or a Luminus SST40.

Lower cost quality lights would include the Sofirn SP36 BLF as mentioned above by @3_gun it is a triple that I suppose might compete with my TN30 at a lower cost.

Also I am happy with the Sofirn D25L headlamp

Convoy S2+ can be had with either of the emitters I mentioned, for less than $20.
Its an 18650 light that can run at about 800 lumens for hours, so bring a couple of spare batteries if you want to go through the night.

Sofirn makes a similar light, IDK the model though.

Lumens are additive, IE, a single light might throw 40 yards, but two of them will be twice as bright at that distance, or will throw twice as far.

I'd like to suggest that you bring a compact thrower, like perhaps a Convoy C8. Again it is an 18650 light with a larger than standard head that focuses the beam tighter giving it greater distance with the same number of lumens, and thereby gives a decent runtime. You may want to scan the other side of a ravine, or stream without getting your feet or legs wet.

Tom...Could your field teams use headlamps? Many headlamps are floody by design, and more than a few are fueled by 1xAA alkaline cells. But as Poppy writes above, to generate any real power you need to consider 18650 cells (or 21700 cells for longer runtimes).

If we're talking headlamps now, what about something like the Nitecore HU60? It is powered by a USB power bank, so your runtime is only really limited to the size of your power bank. This also takes away some of the risk of handling loose lithium rechargeable cells. Nitecore sells at least a 5000mah and 10000mah power bank specifically for this that is waterproof, the smaller one looks like it could probably be stowed directly on the headlamp strap. The light digitally adjusts from spot to flood. The power banks don't look to be unreasonably priced, so you could have backups.

I may have just talked myself into buying one of these for myself.

Tom,
I searched for my thread (the one that started it all for me) and found it, created just before Christmas 2012.
It seems the costs, that I recalled have been like a fish story have have increased with time.

Poppy said:

It seems the costs, that I recalled have been like a fish story have have increased with time.

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Sounds like most things these days. I'd insert a lol smiley, but it's not funny anymore.

Poppy said:

Tom,
I searched for my thread (the one that started it all for me) and found it, created just before Christmas 2012.

please recommend a light for wooded area search and rescue

I'm on our local CERT team, and if we ever get called out to do a search in a wooded area I want to be prepared. I snipped some of this from a sticky in this forum. I have a 3D LED maglight I imagine that this will do pretty well, and I bought a belt ring/holster for it. I'm thinking that the...

www.candlepowerforums.com

It seems the costs, that I recalled have been like a fish story have have increased with time.

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Here is what constrains the costs of the light/s chosen for this search readiness function. The need arises no more than once in every 2 years. The greater awareness of this issue that has developed among returning staff has led to a steady decline in actual incidences of campers becoming separated from their trip group even momentarily. In working with the program director on preparing operating guidelines for this and other hiking trip issues we have discovered that some of the possible advice in the guidelines would require the availability of certain kinds of kit that the counselors have not previously had available to them on any kind of consistent basis.

In trying to provide consistently appropriate tools for the various high consequence situations counselors might have to deal with we cannot add a lot of volume and especially weight to their load out. The really limiting factor is that there are 4 trips per each of 3 camps with the possible need for 2 unique tools for this low-incidence, high-consequence event. That's 2 counselors per trip times 12 trips is 24 of whatever light is chosen. At even $50 per light that's $600. That is about the cost of bringing 2 campers from impoverished families to camp for 2 weeks. That's a hard to justify cost to the camp program committee and the program manager. It might be that we can make a start on that equipment this year by using the donated flashlights to equip 6 of the 12 counselors that would be out with the youngest trip group from each camp. Then we could use the equipment funds available this year for radios for Counselor use on trips. Communications on a trip spread out over 1 or 2 10ths of a mile on a trail may be more important to the camp program committee and camp directors than special purpose lights.

[One of the features I'd like to have in the radios is automatic alert reception from the NOAA All Hazards radio network. The worst experiences that trips have have had to deal with have been being caught in unpredicted severe weather. Trip leaders check the weather for the day during wake up but sudden changes in forecasts are not yet unknown. A violent thunderstorm in a very rural area is a truly dangerous event for a trip of children equipped for tarp sheltered camping. The Mid Atlantic region is very prone to these during our entire camping season.]

We do what we can with what we have to work with to give all of these children the best camp experience we can devise.

I thank everyone who has offered advice and support.

Tom Horne

There are a broad range of helpful suggestions in the preceding posts. Too many however involve lithium-ion cells as the fuel. Let's see if we can winnow the selection of performance-conforming lights for PURCHASE by Mr. Horne to a few finalists.

My recommendations, set out below, are each powered by commonly available alkaline primary cells, either AA, C, or D cells. The cost of each light is Mr. Horne's budget as confirmed by an online search and price comparison. These recommendations are also more cost-effective than purchased Mag-Lites. (And yes, Mag-Lites can be upgraded with aftermarket LED replacement modules, but those will cost extra; my recommendations are therefore limited to stock lights.) Finally, reliability is based on my personal experience with each brand, so if your experience differs, please report any objections to my recommendations with your own experience, so Mr. Horne can judge for himself. Here goes...

1. Duracell 1000 (Regular Edition / Powered by 3xC cells.
I have the predecessor to this light, and my personal experience is that it will in fact run for at lease eight hours on three C-cells, assuming the cells are relatively fresh, or not otherwise depleted by prior use. At this time, this light appears to be the most cost-effective of my recommendations.




2. Energizer TAC 1000 / Powered by 6xAA cells.
This light is an OK recommendation, with a caveat. The caveat is that this light will be a good choice only if you can't get C-cells to power my previous recommendation. Here's why... A single alkaline C-cell has an energy density equal to four AA alkaline cells; assuming two lights, one powered by 6xAA, the other by 3xC, my back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that the 3xC light will be able to run twice as long as the 6xAA light, with both lights at about the same size and weight. Also, C-cells are less likely to leak than AA cells, among other good reasons.




3. Duracell 1000 / Powered by 4xC cells.
Not bad, but relatively expensive compared to the others, with only a modest increase in lumen output. This is the "rugged' version of the light, but at twice the price as the "regular" version.




4. Duracell 2500 / Powered by 12xAA cells. (Ouch!)
This might be more useful as a SAR light, one per mobile camping team, as it appears to be too heavy for "regular" use. I include it here only because of the high lumen output running on alkaline cells. The cost of the light is reasonable; but unless you get your AA cells either free or at a good discount, the fuel cost might put a dent into your budget. Reflexively, if you only need this kind of torch once or twice a year, the battery costs won't really be an issue (especially if it helps find a lost camper).



Gents, I stand by these recommendations. But that's just one man's experienced opinion...let us have your collective thoughts.

In my experience, both Energizer and Duracell brand lights start dimming after about 5-15 minutes to game the ANSI specs for brightness and runtime. Looks good on paper, but is worse than unregulated lights in use. For a critical task like search and rescue, the last thing you want is a light that is constantly dimming down before the batteries are even low when you're trying to find someone in the dark woods.

Tom as I read through your multiple threads, this is what I gleaned:
1. you want 12 high powered floody hand held lights
2. you are fixated on primary cells
3. you want them to run through the night with ONE battery change
4. weight is not a problem, for in camp use, but these are purpose built lights for locating lost campers on a hike. Whereby you'll have two camp personnel each carry one. On these hikes size and weight are a problem, or in the least a consideration.
5. despite being told to trash your 6V lanterns, and replace them with inexpensive ones, OR use a ceiling bounced flashlight, or use a diffuser on a flashlight. You seem intent on justifying upgrading your old 6V lanterns.
6. $50 for each of these specialty wide flood with batteries is too much.

Did I miss anything?

Additional recommendations...

1 & 2. NOAA All Hazards Weather Radios.






2. Lost Camper Whistle (one per camper / aids in locating strays).
There are literally dozens of whistles and whistle types available online. The least expensive I saw was $0.50 for a plastic, classic football coach Acme Thunder style signal whistle. (A real Acme Thunder is about $7-10.) At the $0.50 price you could let each camper keep it after the camp experience was completed (which would also be more sanitary). You could also incorporate the whistles as part of your campers' safety training, so they are at least aware of when to blow it, and what signals to use. And if for some reason a missing camper wandered farther off-trail than your flashlight search scenario envisions, the sound of the whistle could guide the counselors to the child's location much faster than a random search might yield. Just a thought...

DaveTheDude said:

Additional recommendations...

1 & 2. NOAA All Hazards Weather Radios.

View attachment 41442

View attachment 41443


2. Lost Camper Whistle (one per camper / aids in locating strays).
There are literally dozens of whistles and whistle types available online. The least expensive I saw was $0.50 for a plastic, classic football coach Acme Thunder style signal whistle. (A real Acme Thunder is about $7-10.) At the $0.50 price you could let each camper keep it after the camp experience was completed (which would also be more sanitary). You could also incorporate the whistles as part of your campers' safety training, so they are at least aware of when to blow it, and what signals to use. And if for some reason a missing camper wandered farther off-trail than your flashlight search scenario envisions, the sound of the whistle could guide the counselors to the child's location much faster than a random search might yield. Just a thought...

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Thank you for the 2 weather radio suggestions. I love the first ones size but I have an impression that AAA cells run down very fast. If there is only one on a trip then I guess we can just send along a 6 carrier set of AAAs.

That whistle idea is a winner. It has already made it into my first draft of the safety equipment list. The present list has all of the things that a camper must have at camp but that one does not include a whistle. What I'm trying to shred out of that is a list of what each camper must have on every trip.

Do you happen to know what the name is for the pea-less whistles are that clip onto life jackets on regulated vessels carrying passengers for hire. I thought of those because Underwriters Laboratories test such things for coast guard approval. Any that are approved are self draining; there is no place in them for water to collect and when hung on a lanyard water will drain out as fast as it comes in. They will produce the minimum acceptable sound level in 2 seconds when full of water. Like when you place it to your lips just as a wave slops water into it then it still sounds right a way.

I think I could even buy enough of such a small thing out of my own funds. If I can get a couple of other members of my meeting to chip in maybe we could get them marked with the camps logo and the year. That way it would be a keepsake and the kids would be more careful not to loose it.

Tom Horne

Poppy said:

Tom as I read through your multiple threads, this is what I gleaned:
1. you want 12 high powered floody hand held lights
2. you are fixated on primary cells
3. you want them to run through the night with ONE battery change
4. weight is not a problem, for in camp use, but these are purpose built lights for locating lost campers on a hike. Whereby you'll have two camp personnel each carry one. On these hikes size and weight are a problem, or in the least a consideration.
5. despite being told to trash your 6V lanterns, and replace them with inexpensive ones, OR use a ceiling bounced flashlight, or use a diffuser on a flashlight. You seem intent on justifying upgrading your old 6V lanterns.
6. $50 for each of these specialty wide flood with batteries is too much.

Did I miss anything?

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1.The high powered part is in question because some have said that that can become a drawback. For all I know 200 lumens might be more than enough and that would help with size and weight. Near field floody is essential and the more even the light is the better.
2. I would really prefer one that runs on primary cells. With a new carrier of cells on every trip that could be used during the next trip we wouldn't have to worry about assuring the batteries begin each trip charged.
3. Yes I'd like them to. If that cannot be done then just give me the reasons why.
4. All correct.
5. Those are for my family's use for power blackouts and the like. The only use they've seen so far have been for that purpose. We have been through week long and 10 day power outages from winter storms, damaging thunderstorms, remnant hurricanes and the like. They've been adequate but once I started looking into battery powered lights I thought that I should figure out whether those could be upgraded to.
6. No that would not be too much. That seems like a good price to me. I'm just trying to face the reality of others not seeing them as high a priority as I do. Each years budget contains money for equipment replacement and additions. The flashlights would be additions but so would radios. When we do the work to get the camps ready to open we find out what we have to replace and buy that stuff first. Then the camp program committee, program manager, and camp directors will come to unity on which, of the many things someone may want, will get purchased. I said before that the decision isn't mine alone to make. I have been advising the camping program on safety issues for over 30+ years now. Some things I have suggested the Yearly Meeting has bought. Some came from direct financial donations to the camping program. Some from individuals buying things that are needed that the camp program budget couldn't afford. We just have to keep doing the best we can with what we have to work with. No one can ask more of us than that.

Tom Horne

Since it sounds like cost is at least somewhat of an issue, just buy a bunch of Maglite ML50L's and a bunch of spare c-cells and call it a day. They are decently well made, relatively inexpensive, adjust from spot to flood, run on common c batteries, chances are that you can get replacement lights locally(or pretty quickly online) if the need arises.

I'd be happy to buy a couple of those lights and send them your way. Edit: Then if you think those are adequate, I can add a handful more when my tax refund arrives.

You don't necessarily need to acquire the lights all in one shot, you could maybe spread the purchase out over a couple of seasons to take some of the sting out of the expense. Maybe just equip one counselor in each group with a light this year, the second counselor could carry an additional spare set of batteries, then buy the rest of the lights next year.

Good call on the whistles.

I will get those other lights in the mail to you tomorrow.

TD-Horne said:

1.The high powered part is in question because some have said that that can become a drawback. For all I know 200 lumens might be more than enough and that would help with size and weight. Near field floody is essential and the more even the light is the better.
2. I would really prefer one that runs on primary cells. With a new carrier of cells on every trip that could be used during the next trip we wouldn't have to worry about assuring the batteries begin each trip charged.
3. Yes I'd like them to.Run through the night with no more than one battery change If that cannot be done then just give me the reasons why.
4. All correct. Weight issues.

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1. 200 lumens is woefully inadequate. Before I bought my TN30, I tried a 3D LED maglite, (which I deemed borderline acceptable with fresh batteries), and I tried a 3C rayovac indestructible. IIRC it had 200 focused lumens. WIth fresh batteries it was woefully inadequate. IMO one wants at a minimum 500-800 lumens. In a wooded area SAR. As I mentioned above it would have a large die LED so that one gets a large hot-spot, and a reflector that allows for a good amount of spill.

2. fully charged LiIon cells hold their charge for a year, easily. So at the beginning, of the season, just top off your spares, and you are good to go. Just keep them separate, and under adult supervision. Certainly before each planned hiking trip, fresh batteries can be supplied for each light, and they can be cycled into the charger. They are really easy to charge, just pop them into a charger, and just like your cell phone, or electric shaver, when they stop blinking they are charged.

3. run through the night with only one battery change: It is a matter of battery capacity and how each chemistry performs under load.
a. in order to produce 500-800 lumens, the LED needs about 1.2 amps to 2 amps from the battery/source. see below:

flux is can be considered lumens



The data was taken from the Cree XML2 datasheet

using https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonCDcomparator.php
we see that a panasonic alkaline C, and alkaline D cell performs rather poorly at one and two amps.
Here the graph for the C cell depicts that at 1 amp it'll discharge in about 3-4 hours and at 2 amps 1.5 hours.



Here the graph for the D cell depicts that at 1 amp it'll discharge in about 8 hours, at 2 amps it will discharge in about 3 hours.


Here is the discharge graph for a Panasonic 18650 LiIon cell

At one amp it'll discharge in about 3 hours and 10 minutes, and at 2 amps about 1.5 hours.



This shows that to get through a ten hour night, one needs to change out the batteries in a 3D cell light three times, and in a 3C light four times, in a single cell 18650 light six times, but in a three cell 18650, one or two times.
Regarding weight, one needs a total of 12 D's, vs 15 C's, vs 7- 9 18650's,

Some inexspensive whistles.

TD-Horne said:

The operation is a church operated youth summer camp program of 3 camps and a mobile teen adventure program. If I were to overspend on equipment; which the camping program committee and the program coordinator would never let me do; It could keep a poor child out of camp. If you've ever heard the word "Parsimonious," meaning frugal as the Parson in a poor parish which cannot pay them very well, then you have the idea.

I have to take every suggestion you folks give me and weigh the costs and benefits. Most things north of $100 would be a "seek donation item." That means I would have to find someone who could donate the funds outside the budget. As an example when some of the canoes that the camps use wore out; after 30 years of hard service and much patching; individual donors bought new canoes and got to decide which historic figure the canoe would be named for. My spouse and I named ours "Lucretia Mott. [I was working full time back then and overtime to pay for such things was readily available.]

As an example of a non budgeted donation, since I've been retired I have saved enough every month to buy a backpack pump tank. Those are used to suppress ground cover fires. To do that I hunted high and low on eBay, salvage outlet sites... I brought them all in at $130 maximum apiece and was able to make some multiple unit purchases at much less than that. These sell for ~$160 minimum apiece when new. When I get the last set of 2 delivered we will have one backpack pump for each group of buildings so that there will be one within 75 feet of each regularly occupied place. I can then move on to the next need which I think will be these portable light issues. The counselors bring their own favorite lights and the campers are provided with one by their parents, or by the program for the campers from impoverished families. [Remember the suggestions that many of you made that led me to a very cost effective choice for camper headlamps]

The generosity of some of the participants here has allowed me to fill the need for lights for Night Counselors which make them feel more secure in making their rounds and I thank you all for that.

I now hope to be able to concentrate on those hand lights which will meet a special need, such as a missing camper search. That is why I'm seeking advice here so as to be ready to support the camp program committee in choosing what priority is next.

Our counselors and in camp staff put their whole hearts into creating the experience that the campers have. They accomplish so much with so little. Many of them incur education debt rather than spend the summer working to pay next semester's tuition. The least I can do is support their work in every way I practically can.

Tom Horne

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for 100 $ you can get very good flashlight from Convoy or this Streamlight (https://www.streamlight.com/products/detail/protac-hl-5-x ~98$ on Amazon) . Also, if you need to look for missing vacationers, they can be required to wear reflective stripes or bracelets on the body. Then even a weak flashlight will be enough to find them. If children are allowed to use smartphones with Internet access, then you can install a free GPS tracking program on each.

Oh, by the way, why carry weights on yourself when you can take a cart and take turns pulling it? I think you can find suitable scrap metal in a landfill and a welder for a small fee will weld something like such a cart, but with larger wheels to ride well in the mud.

Also, so that children do not get lost, they can be tied with a rope, as during climbing trips, this can also help them become more disciplined and learn how to knit climbing knots

@DaveTheDude

DaveTheDude said:

1. Duracell 1000 (Regular Edition / Powered by 3xC cells.
I have the predecessor to this light, and my personal experience is that it will in fact run for at lease eight hours on three C-cells, assuming the cells are relatively fresh, or not otherwise depleted by prior use. At this time, this light appears to be the most cost-effective of my recommendations.

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I suspect that this light, now at 1000 lumens fell prey to the luman war of a few years ago. Your light might well be 600 lumens. Even at that to get 8 hours run time from 3 C cells, it would have to step down, or follow the decreasing voltage path with the concurrent decrease in output. SO a 600 lumen light at the end of its run would only output 60 lumens. Far from an adequate number of lumens for a wooded area SAR light.

I was tempted to recommend the Home Depot Defiant 3C triple LED light. Mine is IIRC 650 lumens, and is the one my grandson prefers to take when camping. The problem is that it is now a 1200 lumen light. Meaning that its output will drop like falling off of a cliff for the first 30 minutes, and continue down from there. Defiant rates it's ansi at 3 hours run time.

TD-Horne said:

Long throw is of NO use. ..

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+

A true search light has throw.

A big emitter in a smaller reflector will give you the flood you're looking for,
multi emitter lights are floddy also.

If you haven't already, start using rechargeable lithium batteries Tom.