742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II MC-E review added

[neoseikan]

So is this light available now?

Mac

Hi, Mac. If you mean Legion II, yes. available now. but I have used up the drivers in my hand, and I am preparing for another batch. 2~3 weeks in max. (after all, we are working faster and faster.)

@ Picard:

It doesn't have a clicky switch, but a ring.
It get hot quite soon, but won't be too hot with right air flow.
Users are not suggested to disassemble it,
but I might provide some photos about it.

 

[wbp]

It get hot quite soon, but won't be too hot with right air flow.

I would say it gets quite warm, but not hot, in normal use. This means with reasonable ventilation and/or being held. If you turn it on and leave it untouched with no air flow, it will get hot to the touch.

During run time testing I ran it for over 2 hours at a sitting with only a PC fan to move some air over it, and it never got hot, just barely warm.

 

[member 6142]

I would say it gets quite warm, but not hot, in normal use. This means with reasonable ventilation and/or being held. If you turn it on and leave it untouched with no air flow, it will get hot to the touch.

During run time testing I ran it for over 2 hours at a sitting with only a PC fan to move some air over it, and it never got hot, just barely warm.

I don't feel confortable with a flashlight that relies only on external factors for cooling. I.e.: to my understanding it should implement
1)the best possible mechanical heat dissipation
2)the best possible (see RA Lights and others) electronic thermal management

Not always flashlight are used or can be used in ventilated areas or simply kept in hands, exploiting blood circulation :thumbsdow

 

[neoseikan]

I don't feel confortable with a flashlight that relies only on external factors for cooling. I.e.: to my understanding it should implement
1)the best possible mechanical heat dissipation
2)the best possible (see RA Lights and others) electronic thermal management

Not always flashlight are used or can be used in ventilated areas or simply kept in hands, exploiting blood circulation :thumbsdow

After all, Legion II is the best one among MC-E/P7 lights. (less energy wasted than all others. ) We can use it even without wind or hand. but it's not a good way to keep the health of LED.

 

[member 6142]

After all, Legion II is the best one among MC-E/P7 lights. (less energy wasted than all others. ) We can use it even without wind or hand. but it's not a good way to keep the health of LED.

No doubt about circuitry efficiency, mate
No doubt at all.
Yet -IMHO- a flashlight at this level should implement each and every measure to ensure led is protected even in worst case environment usage.
Just an advice though

 

[applevision]

Not to defend Neo, but I have to say that what we want is lights that push the envelope. You cannot have all things. I mean, if you run the light at lower power it will (presumably) not require any external cooling at all. It's just that we're pushing SERIOUS power on high and the trade off is that no passive cooling can do the full job, no matter how well-designed.

I think that as a group of flashlight enthusiasts, we're all more than comfortable with this type of trade off and even more extreme trade offs such as only being able to use a 'turbo mode' for a few minutes in order to avoid damaging a light or cell. Neo has made an amazing light that is one of the most efficient and well-regulated in the history of lights! There is no risk of damage to the LED or light so long as you are keeping an eye on it for too much heat. Doing the most natural thing in the world (holding it in your hand) solves this problem completely such that the only issue would be tablestanding it for an hour on the highest mode.

:goodjob:

As soon as we get a couple of good reviews on the Standard Edition (and some assurances that the "flow" is going to be sustained and not a 3 month wait again...) for me it will be:




Note: I've been pretty critical of Neo for awhile, but it's only because he's made something that I really WANT and LUST FOR and I've been frustrated by all the shenanigans. Let me say, with no ego, that if he makes the light we are expecting him to make, all of my angst will be erased and my money and gratitude will be his!

 

[neoseikan]

Not to defend Neo, but I have to say that what we want is lights that push the envelope. You cannot have all things. I mean, if you run the light at lower power it will (presumably) not require any external cooling at all. It's just that we're pushing SERIOUS power on high and the trade off is that no passive cooling can do the full job, no matter how well-designed.

I think that as a group of flashlight enthusiasts, we're all more than comfortable with this type of trade off and even more extreme trade offs such as only being able to use a 'turbo mode' for a few minutes in order to avoid damaging a light or cell. Neo has made an amazing light that is one of the most efficient and well-regulated in the history of lights! There is no risk of damage to the LED or light so long as you are keeping an eye on it for too much heat. Doing the most natural thing in the world (holding it in your hand) solves this problem completely such that the only issue would be tablestanding it for an hour on the highest mode.

:goodjob:

As soon as we get a couple of good reviews on the Standard Edition (and some assurances that the "flow" is going to be sustained and not a 3 month wait again...) for me it will be:




Note: I've been pretty critical of Neo for awhile, but it's only because he's made something that I really WANT and LUST FOR and I've been frustrated by all the shenanigans. Let me say, with no ego, that if he makes the light we are expecting him to make, all of my angst will be erased and my money and gratitude will be his!

Thank you! applevision.
The heat will be really a problem when we use SST-90. It will be 9A!
Supposed we provide a light with 5A+ output, how do you think setting a turbo mode for it and turn to 2.5A- after a few minutes?

 

[member 6142]

Not to defend Neo, but I have to say that what we want is lights that push the envelope. You cannot have all things. I mean, if you run the light at lower power it will (presumably) not require any external cooling at all. It's just that we're pushing SERIOUS power on high and the trade off is that no passive cooling can do the full job, no matter how well-designed............cut

I respect your approach. There are points I do share and other points I don't.
Would I buy this flashlight basing on the above mentioned trade-off?
No.
All in all we cannot ignore one basic fact: integrating electronic thermal protection is well within reaching to Neo's electronic knowledge and could spread this flashlight potential market to search and rescue applications (where hands need to be free more than often), inspection into hazardous/explosive places and I might continue...

More market means more $$$$$ and I'm quite sure Neo seeks for that too

Beyond that, at these amperage heat IS ACTUALLY a problem, that should be acknowledged (and it is already) and addressed.
Would this magnificent flashlight implement a thermal management like (not necessarily identical to) the one of HDS/Novatac/Ra I would buy hands down

 

[bigchelis]

I remember saabluster saying that the DEFT was generating around 350 lumens at the emitter.......hmmm.

But the sphere says OTF is 200. He guessed about 235 or so...

Nice work guys...we all love accuracy.

The deft is using paper specs for an R2 driven at 1.5A.

Heatsinking becomes an issue in even Mag builds as me and MrGman have seen. Even some lights which are extremely expensive and well made when heat becomes an issue the out the front lumens suffer. MrGman tested several of my multiple R2 lights and it was very apparent that too much heat the potential lumen output.

My Nailbender Mag R2 build gained 10 out the front lumens when driven at 1A vs. 1.4A. Also, The 1.4A driver after 3 minutes the R2 had lost about 30% of its initial lumens. The 1A driver on the R2 started 10 lumens higher and stayed there with almost no drop even after 3 minutes.

More current = more heat
More heat = potentially less lumens

I still need a DEFT and a Leggion II in my collection:twothumbs

 

[MrGman]

This is of course all true but I don't believe that the Legion II is being overdriven and has a heatsink problem in general. I know that the entire flashlight design was made such to provide massive heatsinking to the LED as best as possible. In general its an excellent and very stable design.

I have never asked specifically if it has current fold back built in when the chip is getting too hot? On the other hand I can only see it getting too hot in an application where the ambient temperature around it is above 100F. Plus no one is forcing the end user to keep it at the highest setting. If heat from long term operation is an issue it has 5 different power levels, the operator can simply CHOOSE to start coming down to lower levels and cut back on the power. Isn't that part of the reason its there??? Don't have to be in Turbo mode all the time.

This is never going to be an explosion proof class or firefighters flashlight as its a metal case that can create sparks. It has 3 large lithium batteries that can explode in a situation where they are getting cooked. If it was to be used in a fire fighting situation it would transfer heat too well and fry the inside of it as well as burn the hands of anyone trying to use it without gloves, so this isn't an emergency personnel flashlight to be anyway.

And the truth is that no regulated LED flashlight would be really good for that application because in a very hot area where ambient temperature is well above 75F past 120F the drive circuitry or the phophors on the die and the die are going to start roasting because they need cooling (since they are well above ambient already from applied power) whereas any incandescent lamp doesn't care about outside air temperature, the filament is running at over 900C to make light anyway. No one would be putting a 14 watt LED drive circuit type flashlight in a plastic housing to insulate it as it needs cooling and no one is worried about blowing a krypton lamp in a regular incan. If the high tech LED flashlight had the best thermal protection circuitry then it would really shut down in areas of extreme heat and never be useable anyway, or fold back to about 1 watt of output which would make it meaningless to have versus a cheap old incan light. So my point is that most high power LED flashlights don't have to be built to be used in high temp applications such as for a fire fighter as it would be contradictory to their design and use anyway. Referring back to some of daberti's potential search and rescue or explosive/hazardous situation type applications. This class of flashlight will never get used anyway.

 

[AardvarkSagus]

Thank you! applevision.
The heat will be really a problem when we use SST-90. It will be 9A!
Supposed we provide a light with 5A+ output, how do you think setting a turbo mode for it and turn to 2.5A- after a few minutes?

Excellent! Can't wait to see an SST-90 version. I don't know that you should push it at the full 9A though without some kind of active heat management. That's a serious amount of heat that will be generated there. Automatically stepping down to 2.5A when it warms up enough sounds like a good idea to me.

As soon as we get a couple of good reviews on the Standard Edition (and some assurances that the "flow" is going to be sustained and not a 3 month wait again...) for me it will be:

As for the reviews of the standard version, I am hoping to be able to help out with that one, but I don't yet know if it will happen.

 

[member 6142]

This is of course all true but I don't believe that the Legion II is being overdriven and has a heatsink problem in general. I know that the entire flashlight design was made such to provide massive heatsinking to the LED as best as possible. In general its an excellent and very stable design.

I have never asked specifically if it has current fold back built in when the chip is getting too hot? On the other hand I can only see it getting too hot in an application where the ambient temperature around it is above 100F. Plus no one is forcing the end user to keep it at the highest setting. If heat from long term operation is an issue it has 5 different power levels, the operator can simply CHOOSE to start coming down to lower levels and cut back on the power. Isn't that part of the reason its there??? Don't have to be in Turbo mode all the time.

This is never going to be an explosion proof class or firefighters flashlight as its a metal case that can create sparks. It has 3 large lithium batteries that can explode in a situation where they are getting cooked. If it was to be used in a fire fighting situation it would transfer heat too well and fry the inside of it as well as burn the hands of anyone trying to use it without gloves, so this isn't an emergency personnel flashlight to be anyway.

And the truth is that no regulated LED flashlight would be really good for that application because in a very hot area where ambient temperature is well above 75F past 120F the drive circuitry or the phophors on the die and the die are going to start roasting because they need cooling (since they are well above ambient already from applied power) whereas any incandescent lamp doesn't care about outside air temperature, the filament is running at over 900C to make light anyway. No one would be putting a 14 watt LED drive circuit type flashlight in a plastic housing to insulate it as it needs cooling and no one is worried about blowing a krypton lamp in a regular incan. If the high tech LED flashlight had the best thermal protection circuitry then it would really shut down in areas of extreme heat and never be useable anyway, or fold back to about 1 watt of output which would make it meaningless to have versus a cheap old incan light. So my point is that most high power LED flashlights don't have to be built to be used in high temp applications such as for a fire fighter as it would be contradictory to their design and use anyway. Referring back to some of daberti's potential search and rescue or explosive/hazardous situation type applications. This class of flashlight will never get used anyway.

So many good points! Of course I'd never use a led flashlight in fire or high temp environments.
Search and rescue: think about it. In woods or in the mountains, you need massive output to spot an injured or lost man. This is a very common situation in the Alps, very near where I live. Headlamps would not be enough, yet you need both hands to climb...you don't need to have to think about what the flashlight needs not to fry the led, but you would need its best output, anyway.

Saying that manually choosing a lower level would prevent from having any heating issue equals to say that such a level is to be considered as the max continuous output.
So, once again back we are to the problem: output is nothing without a steady discharge curve (which Neo achieved) and output but even less if it cannot be kept stably in the worst of the typical working conditions +without any cooling at all.
I suspect that potentially explosive battery chemistry equipped devices could never get across EU borders without evident proof of any measure to avoid these events being adopted.

 

[sjalbrec]

So many good points! Of course I'd never use a led flashlight in fire or high temp environments.
Search and rescue: think about it. In woods or in the mountains, you need massive output to spot an injured or lost man. This is a very common situation in the Alps, very near where I live. Headlamps would not be enough, yet you need both hands to climb...

hmmm, i would think walking in the woods or mountains (in the alps :duh2 would be considered a well ventilated area. the legion II should have no problems running at full power even going through multiple sets of batteries.

also, i haven't encountered a search & rescue paradigm where you would endanger the team by having them climb (needing both hands), in very poor lighting conditions, and relying only on self-illumination. now, if you were referring to a cave rescue, in which cavern do you need hands-free throw of 100+ meters??

sorry, don't mean to flame - but i guess i don't understand your agenda here? :shrug:


oh wait, now i see! neoseikan, i can't believe you didn't design the legion II for a lone climber attempting to rescue someone from the steep side of an erupting volcano! shame on you!

oh, on second thought - that pesky lava throws a lot of ambient light

 

[gsxrac]

Hey Neo would it be correct to believe that the the turnaround time if I were to order a light today is about 3 weeks?

 

[neoseikan]

Hey Neo would it be correct to believe that the the turnaround time if I were to order a light today is about 3 weeks?

YES.

 

[gsxrac]

Sweet! Thanks for the info. I think I might just have to grab an L2 instead of the Surefire M6 I was planning on!

 

[member 6142]

hmmm, i would think walking in the woods or mountains (in the alps :duh2 would be considered a well ventilated area. the legion II should have no problems running at full power even going through multiple sets of batteries.

also, i haven't encountered a search & rescue paradigm where you would endanger the team by having them climb (needing both hands), in very poor lighting conditions, and relying only on self-illumination. now, if you were referring to a cave rescue, in which cavern do you need hands-free throw of 100+ meters??

sorry, don't mean to flame - but i guess i don't understand your agenda here? :shrug:


oh wait, now i see! neoseikan, i can't believe you didn't design the legion II for a lone climber attempting to rescue someone from the steep side of an erupting volcano! shame on you!

oh, on second thought - that pesky lava throws a lot of ambient light

Not so ventilated in these days mate: we've very high humidity and 30°C at 1200mt, you can bet it is an exception, yet .....

Anyway: from now on my decision is to buy only flashlights with electronic thermal management. I'm referring to those who cost more than 120USD as a reference price. There are more than one on the market.
Unfortunately I've had one of those very rare catastrophic failures last summer in Tuscany, with a 1x123 torch used in candlemode (well far away from table) while having dinner and a blackout of 20minutes. Those minutes were more than enough to experience a bang even if flashlight was used at the level immediately below max. We were in the garden (150mtx150mt with no trees around), we were in the 29°C with a steady breeze. None had been injured, but from then on I'm quite picky...

Yes, choosing the level below (or two levels) may help and as a FAC License owner I do know that the first safety is always in your mind. I do know that a handgun is not made to be dropped down, yet none would object that the striker safety is just overkill...or not?

Edit
Or would someone argue that ABS is useless because normally it does NOT kick in if you don't turn yourself into an "Everyday Schumacher"? My story is something pretty different. I'm a responsible driver, I respect rules, I'm not a junk and I use my car to go back and forth from/to my customers, I make nearly 600mls every working week (5days) to this extent and this device saved me at a bare minimum from crashes more than once.

Worth saying that everyone is entitled to purchase and use flashlights at their will. Period.
And I'm not saying that this one suffers from lacks of either mechanical or electronical design. I'm not entitled to, because I should buy one and test in my normal environment, in a variety of ambient temperature, humidity, wind, holding (grip) combinations.
I'm saying that the lack of what from specs I can argue actually lacks -electronical thermal control- combined with acknowledged overheating problems in some conditions keep me off from buying.
Shortly: I use flashlights for real world needings. Trekking, emergency, work. When I need to use them I need to know they can be used, without having to pay my attention to anything else than having them serving my needs and not vice-versa.

Beyond that, such a thermal control would ensure the best lifetime as possible to the led.
Technology is available. So my own decision has been made.

Your mileage may vary though

 

[Vernon]

I recieved my light this past Wednesday - thanks to the guy in TX who forwarded the light to me! After using the L2 for a few nights, I'm very impressed with the finish, balance, UI, and output. Though the wait was arduous and sometimes frustrating, I think Neo has finally found the right mix of quality and design to make a near perfect product.

My light arrived with zero flaws. The only thing missing was a little lube on the threads, but that was easy to take care of myself. The finish is perfect and the HA color matches throughout. I popped three Tenergy cells in, turned the ring, and enjoyed the rediculously bright, even beam. The UI is very easy and intuative - it's quite simple to customize the setting as well.

Compared to my Eagletac M2 (3xQ3), the MC-E in the L2 produces a more balanced diffused beam with the OP reflector but still has the ability to throw like the M2. The donut produced by the MC-E is minimal (if even noticable at all). My initial thoughts are that I like the L2 much better: it's more balanced, feels much more solid in my hand, the UI and selector ring are superior, and frankly it just looks better. The only thing I prefer with the M2 is the fact that I chose the Q3 warm tint option - really nice outside in the woods.

I knew from the beginning that I was "funding" a new project for Neo so I didn't get my hopes up too high and the six month wait didn't bother me too much. However, I do agree that all of our friends who invested in the premium version should be well taken care of! If it weren't for you, I might not be enjoying my standard version right now.

 

[Tempsho]

Is there any kind of warranty offered with this light? I didn't come across any mention of it.

 

[Armed_Forces]

Is there any kind of warranty offered with this light? I didn't come across any mention of it.