American horsepower - .454, .460 or .500?

[Ninjaz7]

Exactly Windstrings...I would like to find that pistol that one could fire multiple rounds and not have to worry about sore wrists,yet drop a bear at 75 yds or better...I'm going to my buddys range soon to fire a few diffrent weapons.Hopefully he or his boss own a .460 or something compatible to fire,I'm no wuss but when I own a weapon I like to become accurate with it and in turn usually flowing many rounds threw it to be so.Thanks guys ...really enjoyin this thread :thumbsup:.

 

[Patriot]

Originally Posted by Ninjaz7
Great input guys...so the 454 would be the least impact to the hands...and the least powerful weapon to trust against a black bear(yes,they can get mean without a killing shot)would probably be a .44 Mag.

The .454 is very stiff, and to some severe even, but not so that you can't get accustomed to it. For black bear .357 isn't out of the question, but the .44 gives a greater degree of safety, provided you do your part concerning placement. Everything I've heard suggests that the .460 is going to be more manageable, while providing much greater impact. Did you read Patriot's posts above. I really want a .460 but am also pretty happy with my .44 Super Redhawk.

Thank you for the very nice words kaichu dento. Also I completely agree with your response to Ninjaz7. .357 is a fine round for black bear country. Most hunters will say to use 158gr. or heavier though which is in contrast to the new wave of lighter .357 personal protection rounds.

wyager
.50 DE? Never heard of it... .50 AE sounds cool though! J/K I make that mistake all the time. People on this thread keep calling it that...

".50 DE" is generally acceptable if you intend to denote both the caliber and make in one phrase. Now, I wouldn't say that I was loading my magazines up with ".50 DE" though.

Qtrhorse
For me, my .44Mag is much more punishing to my hand than a .50 DE. Now the .454 was just not for me in a short revolver. It was brutal to my hand. It was not even fun to shoot at all.

It all depends on what firearm you're shooting the .44Mag through. Obviously a S&W 629PD is going to feel ferocious compared to a long barreled Super Blackhawk with Pachmayr grips. Likewise, the .44Mag through and .44mag chambered DE is going to have substantially less recoil than the .50AE. Generally speaking, with factory loads, most people will say that the .50AE through the DE has more perceived and actual recoil than a 6" model 29 S&W. That's been my experience anyhow. Still, if you were shooting a very light .44mag, like the PD, with full loads and wood grips, I can understand your experience.

Bullzeyebill
Shooting comparable power loads to the 44Mag in the 45LC?

I doubt he's refering to comparable power loads Bill, but that's part of the point here. The original standard .45LC is anemic compared to the 44mag. Here's a good rule of thumb when talking about calibers in this context; only consider common factory loadings and pressures in common or original chambers. In other words, you wouldn't really want to try "full horse," semi-custom Buffalo Bore ammo in a 1st gen Colt SAA. There's always going custom and semi-custom configurations of original calibers and designs but if you walk into a gun shop and purchase off the shelf guns and ammo, that's sort of the context one must consider here.

Windy
Yes, all this changes perspective.. I don't own enough guns "especially pistols" to buy something I really can't use because its too punishing.

I wasn't aware the tragectory was so poor on the DE and the fps ratings were so low. Sounds great for hammering something up close but I'm not fond of blunted bullets for close in but rather like bullets that reach out.

Which would you guys recommend for a flat trajectory that has power but not so much that it get uncomfortable? I know that varies as some guns are smoother and kinder than others yet perform as good or better.

I'm not really looking for a concealed weapon but rather a pistol that could double as a deer rifle "so to speak" as to what it can do.

I don't expect to be making 400 yard shots, but up to 200 with a scope and a nice long barrel may be nice!

Hey Windy :wave:

1)The velocity of the .50AE is not typically considered slow by any means. It's moving at very high velocity for pistol ammo. Also, the trajectory is relatively flat by the same token. Remember, you're comparing a group of thoroughbreds with each other in this selection, not race horses to donkeys. Yes, the 454 and .460 have a bit of an advantage here but in practical application, say a hunting role, the difference is negligible. All of the bullets discussed here are generally going to be "blunt nosed" with the exception of certain specifically designed .460 bullets.

2)A 44mag with 200 grain bullets traveling at about 1500+ is going to shoot flat but probably won't be terribly uncomfortable. Again, I'd have to know what you're using as a standard measurement for comfort to start with though.

3)Again, the .44mag would make a fine deer hunting round but so would the .357mag.

4)Long range pistol gunning is a lot of fun and the smaller calibers like .357 and .44mag are very capable of making pie plate hits at 200 yards in the field if the shooter does their part. The king of long range factory pistol calibers in the .460 S&W but you are talking about the extreme range of the spectrum now. The upper range of most hand cannon velocities rarely exceeds 1800fps while the .460 will do 2200+fps with 200gr bullets and progressive rifling.

 

[QtrHorse]

It all depends on what firearm you're shooting the .44Mag through. Obviously a S&W 629PD is going to feel ferocious compared to a long barreled Super Blackhawk with Pachmayr grips. Likewise, the .44Mag through and .44mag chambered DE is going to have substantially less recoil than the .50AE. Generally speaking, with factory loads, most people will say that the .50AE through the DE has more perceived and actual recoil than a 6" model 29 S&W. That's been my experience anyhow. Still, if you were shooting a very light .44mag, like the PD, with full loads and wood grips, I can understand your experience.

Yes, it is not a heavy gun and it has wooden grips. It would not be the gun it is if it had anything other than wooden grips.

I doubt he's refering to comparable power loads Bill, but that's part of the point here. The original standard .45LC is anemic compared to the 44mag. Here's a good rule of thumb when talking about calibers in this context; only consider common factory loadings and pressures in common or original chambers. In other words, you wouldn't really want to try "full horse," semi-custom Buffalo Bore ammo in a 1st gen Colt SAA. There's always going custom and semi-custom configurations of original calibers and designs but if you walk into a gun shop and purchase off the shelf guns and ammo, that's sort of the context one must consider here.

They were not comparable loads.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

I doubt he's refering to comparable power loads Bill, but that's part of the point here. The original standard .45LC is anemic compared to the 44mag. Here's a good rule of thumb when talking about calibers in this context; only consider common factory loadings and pressures in common or original chambers. In other words, you wouldn't really want to try "full horse," semi-custom Buffalo Bore ammo in a 1st gen Colt SAA. There's always going custom and semi-custom configurations of original calibers and designs but if you walk into a gun shop and purchase off the shelf guns and ammo, that's sort of the context one must consider here.

I was thinking +P+ 45 cal rounds fired in a heavy duty revolver such as the Ruger single action 45. Ross Seyfred (sp?) touted that the 45 Ruger single action with some stiff loads would outdo the 44 mag. He was a believer in bullet diameter and a nice hardcast heavy lead bullet at about 300 grs in 45 cal. Somehow the 300 gr 45 always exceeded the 44 Mag's 300 gr velocity, and at a reasonable pressure level.

Bill

 

[Kestrel]

.357 is a fine round for black bear country. Most hunters will say to use 158gr. or heavier though which is in contrast to the new wave of lighter .357 personal protection rounds

If I was carrying a .357 in bear country, last time I looked (a while ago) there were some great 180 grain hard cast loads with a large (flat) meplat that would probably go all the way through a small-to-medium-sized bear, while hopefully anchoring it by breaking shoulders, spine, or hips along the way. This is a theoretical statement (as I have no real wish to test this), since I believe that load has comparable sectional density to the 300 grain .44 mag - one of those hard-cast loads should be able to do that while breaking comparable bones along the way, although it will be naturally punching a larger hole while in transit. The only .44 load I ever carried in bear country were 300 grainers, now I'm guessing that ~320's might be available from some of the specialty shops. My brother used to carry hard-cast .44 340 grainers he handloaded to a chronographed 1300 fps - he described that load as 'pretty stout'.

Long range pistol gunning is a lot of fun and the smaller calibers like .357 and .44mag are very capable of making pie plate hits at 200 yards in the field if the shooter does their part.

Back when I was shooting a lot of .38's (like 150 rounds every weekend) w/ 148gr HBWC's & 2.5 grains of Bullseye (a very light load, something like a chronographed 650-700 fps IIRC) I had a ball hitting good-sized steel targets at a maximum of 175 yards range. Stability would be lost at 200 yards and accuracy dropped off dramatically. Very fun stuff.

 

[windstrings]

Sounds like you really want to look into the .460 XVR which should be both milder in felt recoil than the .454 and very, very flat shooting.

Nice read on it here...

that is indeed a nice read!...While I"m not fond of revolvers, it fits the specs of what i was hoping for!

The .460 as shown is 2.25 inches in length, and has a muzzle velocity of 2,200 feet per second.

The Hornady statistics were a real eye-popper. With a stated muzzle velocity of 2,200 feet per second, the bullet sighted 1.9 inches high at 50 yards would be 2.4 inches high at 100 yards, dead point of aim at 150 yards and 6.3 inches low at 200 yards.

Sounds like its got a tad more kick than the .50.

 

[Fulgeo]

Just wanted to chime in and say the .50 AE is a ***** cat of an auto to shoot, just about as heavy as an auto can get. I owned a Taurus .454 in the past and it is the only handgun I have ever sold in my life. I put 50 300g full power loads thru it at one time and found it to be very unpleasant. I found a good home for it and took the proceeds and purchased a .44 S&W 629 with a 5" barrel and never looked back. I love the .44 S&W. I am a reloader so making good economical target and or hunting rounds is not an issue. I currently own 9 hand guns. When the S&W .500 came out I took a good look at it but the thing that turned me off was the shear weight of it. The thing loaded weights close to 5 pounds. At that weight if I was worried about bear and wanted to carry something "lite" I would be carrying a 12 gauge pump with slugs or a small 45-70 carbine. Back to the point thou if I wanted to buy an uber caliber pistol just for the fun of shooting it I would go ahead and get the S&W .500. Oh and hey the most unpleasant recoil I have ever felt has come from my .357 S&W 340PD.

 

[windstrings]

As much as these things cost and it seems near impossible to take a gun back once its been shot... I would have to shoot one first.

I live near Dallas "DFW gunrange" and I understand they will let you shoot before you buy.....

I"m not fond of buyers remorse when it cost close to 2K.

 

[kaichu dento]

We've got .460 XVR's at Fred Meyer in Fairbanks for just under a grand. Probably because this is dangerous game country, or at least large parts of it are, and there is probably a higher per capita desire to own a large caliber EDC!

If your prices in Texas are that high, you could fly up here and take one home to save on the purchase price!

 

[windstrings]

We've got .460 XVR's at Fred Meyer in Fairbanks for just under a grand. Probably because this is dangerous game country, or at least large parts of it are, and there is probably a higher per capita desire to own a large caliber EDC!

If your prices in Texas are that high, you could fly up here and take one home to save on the purchase price!

Wow!.. I was just assuming it would be on par with the .50 AE... but I didn't check.....

Humm..... I would have to warm up to the idea of a revolver.

 

[windstrings]

Ah.. your right.. definitely a cool looking revolver!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0076845217463a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&Ntk=Product_liberal&QueryText=.460+XVR&sort=all&Go.y=8&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form23&Go.x=13

So what is it about the Desert Eagle that demands almost twice the price?.... just being an Auto?..... the name "50 Caliber" smooth action? or a combination?
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t.../en/common/search/search-box.jsp.form1&Go.x=0

Geez.. I could just about get that with my Cabelas points alone!

 

[kaichu dento]

Just to throw out a wild guess, lower number of sales? I never liked the Desert Eagles for their sheer hugeness although I did enjoy shooting them.

 

[wyager]

Ah.. your right.. definitely a cool looking revolver!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...n/common/search/search-box.jsp.form23&Go.x=13

So what is it about the Desert Eagle that demands almost twice the price?.... just being an Auto?..... the name "50 Caliber" smooth action? or a combination?
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t.../en/common/search/search-box.jsp.form1&Go.x=0

Geez.. I could just about get that with my Cabelas points alone!

It's super overrated. That's why. Every damn movie out there has characters using the desert eagle, because most people out there think that a decently sized handgun is too small. When they see the boondock saints using extended deagles with extended clipz or 50 cent busting a cap with one, they all think wow, I want one of those! :thumbsdow There is an artificially high demand, plus there is the "bling" factor associated because they market the titanium nitride coated one as being a "golden" desert eagle or "gold plated" desert eagle, and every video game does the same. I'm not saying it's a bad gun, just that they market it really hard and sell it at really high prices.

will

 

[Patriot]

So what is it about the Desert Eagle that demands almost twice the price?.... just being an Auto?..... the name "50 Caliber" smooth action? or a combination?

Windy, it's mainly due to production costs. It's more complicated, has more moving parts, more machining, and more fitting in every area other than the trigger, where the X-frame Smith has more fitting. Mark-up on firearms is very consistent from manufacturer to wholesale and wholesale to retail. It's also surprisingly that there's not very much profit in them, therefore they have to sell a lot of them. So, if one desired and auto that shoots high energy rounds, he has to pay the auto price. There's much more value associated with the revolver. The .460 is only going to have less recoil with one or two factory loadings. As you go up in bullet weight an start getting up into maximum load territory, it will have more recoil than a .454.

A good rule of thumb for estimating recoil it to take the bullet weight and multiply it times the velocity and compare that number with other dissimilar calibers. A good way to determine the upper limits is to simply look as power capacity or how much power the empty case itself will hold.

 

[windstrings]

Windy, it's mainly due to production costs. It's more complicated, has more moving parts, more machining, and more fitting in every area other than the trigger, where the X-frame Smith has more fitting. Mark-up on firearms is very consistent from manufacturer to wholesale and wholesale to retail. It's also surprisingly that there's not very much profit in them, therefore they have to sell a lot of them.

I expect its a matter of both.... hype, glory, fame from the movies, due to expense there aren't many orders and because there's not many orders the price stays up "a vicious cycle", along with all the stuff you mentioned too Patriot.

I do like the flatter trajectory and 3 choices of bullets.

I know Auto's are more complex to get to work smoothly.
I have a Stainless .22 Mk III and its a 545.00 gun but it works flawlessly. I took the handle off and took my dremel and polished it up to where you would swear its nickel plated as it looks like a mirror.

I've read a lot about headaches with other automatics.. especially if the ammo is dirty.

Cleaning a "non" auto is easier as all the powder goes forward rather than getting blown backwards.

I do like that the price is far less... I could put a scope, mounts etc and still be cheaper than the DE.

Only problem is if I switched ammo, it would throw my sightings off.
I would have to see if I could tolerate the higher power and would want that if possible.

It would be too cool to go through the bushes with a pistol instead of a long rifle.... I love my rife, but a pistol that could shoot like a rifle would be a new experience.

I"m starting to get excited about this.... thats always a bad sign! :naughty:

 

[Patriot]

Back when I was shooting a lot of .38's (like 150 rounds every weekend) w/ 148gr HBWC's & 2.5 grains of Bullseye (a very light load, something like a chronographed 650-700 fps IIRC) I had a ball hitting good-sized steel targets at a maximum of 175 yards range. Stability would be lost at 200 yards and accuracy dropped off dramatically. Very fun stuff.

Nice Kestrel! Further examples of how distance can be overcome with good ammo consistency and hold over. My first .38 revolver was a stainless Rossi 2" and 100 yards shots on 2 liter sized bottle targets became quite do-able with some Kentucky windage and hold-over even while shooting off hand. Although I haven't been doing that lately I've been shooting pretty far with my MkIII Hunter, similar to what Windstrings is shooting. Even the little .22LR does quite well once hold over and zero is sorted out.

Windstrings
Only problem is if I switched ammo, it would throw my sightings off.
I would have to see if I could tolerate the higher power and would want that if possible.

....and of course that's going to be the case with everything, including rifles. Usually the differences are small depending on the size, range of the target and ammo difference. In other words, if you're shooting bottles at 50 yards it's probably not going to matter. At longer range you'll just use scope presets (if the optic is high quality and repeatable) to switch between different known ammo types.

 

[windstrings]

....and of course that's going to be the case with everything, including rifles. Usually the differences are small depending on the size, range of the target and ammo difference. In other words, if you're shooting bottles at 50 yards it's probably not going to matter. At longer range you'll just use scope presets (if the optic is high quality and repeatable) to switch between different known ammo types.

That versatility is one of the reasons I bought the Rugur Mk III.... I have it sighted in with the most powerful high velocity stuff I can find "Aquila". (1750 fps)
But now I can drop down velocity and aim high... LOL! if I use the weaker stuff... but why would I do that?

Going with less grains can give you flatter trajectory and less kick while maintaining knockdown "as long as you still have penetration"....

At any rate, its like owning 3 different guns in one depending on what your need when you can shoot different ammo velocities, grains, etc.

For someone who doesn't have a case full of guns, thats a good consideration... another reason I like my 30-06.. I can go from 55grains to 220.

 

[nubus]

As to the title, 460 if I had to choose.
Because I believe in function over many other aspects.
You can shoot 454 and 45LC in a 460, a huge range of pressures and loads.
Easy plinkin with lead 45LC, to serious dangerous game knockdown with 460.
My 2 cents.

 

[windstrings]

I talked to a gunsmith I know and he thinks it would be terrible punishment on the wrist and I should choose smaller....

But like you say... its like buying 3 guns in one.... One could always choose the other loads and only go big if they really wanted to do something special.

Verses going 300grain, "nearly 2000fps" one could use the 200 grain "pointed" "2200 fps" and I would think kick would be manageable and have a very nice trajectory with that weight and velocity.

Premium components and propellants team with Hornady's 200-gr. FTX bullets to produce a hard-hitting, flat-shooting handgun round capable of taking game out to 200 yards. These bullets leave the barrel at 2,200 fps and still retain more than 1,300 ft.-lbs. of energy at 100 yards.

I just want to be able to take down a deer at the greatest distance I can... that doesn't need much grains at all.


Anyone have any comments on what barrel to choose?

Looks like it comes with an 8 3/8 inch barrel.

Model 460XVR – Able to shoot a 200-grain bullet at 2,330 fps, it produces the highest velocities of any revolver in the world. Set your point of impact for 200 yards and harvest game from 1 to 250 yards with no hold over. Can also shoot .45 Colt and .454 Casull cartridges.

Definitely a cool looking Gun no doubt!

200 gr .460 S&W Hornady Handgun Cartridge

On the 4th I shot five off (in a a safe direction) during our fireworks show and more than a few people said it was the best part of the evening, massive flame blowing out of the barrel and then sucking itself back down into the barrel. The most fun you can have with your clothes on!!

This ammunition is extremely clean, accurate, and powerful, and is very pleasant to shoot (only kicks slightly harder than a .50AE Desert Eagle) - I punched a 4-inch group at 15 yards off hand in double action mode easily with this ammunition with an 8.375" 460XVR. Wear ear plugs and jam them deep into your ears as the noise is extreme; the muzzle flash is also impressive - about 2 feet wide and 3 feet long!

 

[kaichu dento]

For your goal of deer hunting you'd probably be best served by the longer barrel, but there is the shorter 5" barreled .460 V, which is the one I've been wanting.
Here's a review of it too.