Behemoth Tactical Lego Shootout Summer 09...

[cenz]

Thanks Eric!

I'm a bit surprised at HO-M3T shot from your test , especially the beam pattern is tight and round, it is quite throw and has a long-runtime design.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

The HO-M3T is an excellent all-around bulb. Perfect for your "user" outdoors setup. You wouldn't use the MN21 for this role...

 

[mdocod]

Yea, there are definitely a few lamps that are practical and impressive, and others that are more for fun or specialized applications.

If I had to pick just a few lamps to own the list would probably look like this:

SR-9
SR-9L
EO-13
IMR-13
IMR-M3
HO-M3T
HO-M6R
EO-E2R
*subject to change without notice

That would cover pretty much every need you could have for incandecent applications. Some floods, some throws, reasonable run-time on larger li-ion cells for most of them.

 

[Owen]

Yea, there are definitely a few lamps that are practical and impressive, and others that are more for fun or specialized applications.

Well, I had high hopes for the IMR-M3T as a big step up in both output and throw, since it doubles the lumens of the HO-M3T. Maybe I'll give the MN16 another shot.
Reminded me that the EO-9L is my favorite of the D36 lamps, and I've got a bored out M3 sitting here with nothing in it.
Or I could sell some stuff, and just keep the parts for a M3T/MN16 on 2x18500

As always, thanks for your efforts.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Well, I had high hopes for the IMR-M3T as a big step up in both output and throw, since it doubles the lumens of the HO-M3T. Maybe I'll give the MN16 another shot.
Reminded me that the EO-9L is my favorite of the D36 lamps, and I've got a bored out M3 sitting here with nothing in it.
Or I could sell some stuff, and just keep the parts for a M3T/MN16 on 2x18500

As always, thanks for your efforts.

My IMR-M3T seems to be twice as bright as my HO-M3T. At least in total output, not in throw.

Are you running your lamp assemblies on which type of cells?

 

[mdocod]

Hi Owen,

Within each reflector size, there are some trends that become pretty obvious upon comparing the lux figures in the comparisons I've made above. More often than not, moving up to higher powered bulbs does not produce much increase in throw, and often times, actually results in less beam intensity, and just a wider, or much wider beam instead.

The most dramatic example of this, is the full D36 line, which all fall within 14% of each other in total throw, even though there is nearly a 3 fold variation in power consumption from the bottom to the top of the line.

The MN16 on large li-ion cells will likely over-drive to nearly match or even maybe beat the IMR-M3T in total output. Not sure about the beam pattern, haven't tested one yet....

visually, many have said it's hard to see a major difference between an MN16 and a 1111 configuration, since the bulbs are within ~25% power consumption and both driven hard and white on pairs of li-ion cells.

 

[Owen]

Hi Owen,
Within each reflector size, there are some trends that become pretty obvious upon comparing the lux figures in the comparisons I've made above. More often than not, moving up to higher powered bulbs does not produce much increase in throw, and often times, actually results in less beam intensity, and just a wider, or much wider beam instead.
..........
The MN16 on large li-ion cells will likely over-drive to nearly match or even maybe beat the IMR-M3T in total output. Not sure about the beam pattern, haven't tested one yet....

Yeah, the "rule of point source" strikes again.

The MN16 is a real screamer on 2x18650. You may remember I fried a couple of them, and even though I blame my old charger, I haven't been comfortable firing that combo up ever since.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Will an MN16 probably blow on 2x18500 IMRs?

 

[mdocod]

Will an MN16 probably blow on 2x18500 IMRs?

The likelihood of premature failure is greatly increased on large high current capable li-ion cells...

Keep in mind that the MN16, like the MN11, MN21, and P91, are all ~6.6V bulbs.

Unfortunately, there isn't any way for me to have an absolute yes or no for all configurations because so many of them are straddling the fence. The bulb survival becomes dependent on numerous variables.

I can say, with reasonable confidence, that there are definitely 2 "groups" of bulbs in the tactical category. The SF LOLA and the full LF lineup fall in the group of bulbs that will tolerate any size li-ion cells without a problem. While SF HOLA and many popular bi-pin bulbs fall into a category of "on the fence" where most premature failures are reported from on larger and/or lower resistance li-ion cells.

-Eric

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

The likelihood of premature failure is greatly increased on large high current capable li-ion cells...

Keep in mind that the MN16, like the MN11, MN21, and P91, are all ~6.6V bulbs.

Unfortunately, there isn't any way for me to have an absolute yes or no for all configurations because so many of them are straddling the fence. The bulb survival becomes dependent on numerous variables.

I can say, with reasonable confidence, that there are definitely 2 "groups" of bulbs in the tactical category. The SF LOLA and the full LF lineup fall in the group of bulbs that will tolerate any size li-ion cells without a problem. While SF HOLA and many popular bi-pin bulbs fall into a category of "on the fence" where most premature failures are reported from on larger and/or lower resistance li-ion cells.

-Eric

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain that.

Now, where are the much awaited real-world Outdoor Beamshots??

 

[Dioni]

One more legendary thread.. thanks for all info and updates! :thumbsup:

 

[mdocod]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain that.

Now, where are the much awaited real-world Outdoor Beamshots??

I'm ditching the ones I took originally, I didn't like the way they came out, and the sunrise interrupted the last dozen shots or so.

Maybe sometime in this next week or 2 I'll have a chance to get out and re-take some shots...

I really want to incorporate a set of targets at various ranges. Targets that could be replicated by anyone with a printer or something like that..

-Eric

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Rise from your grave!

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Hey Eric! Just I thought...

Have you measured your HO-M3T and the EO-M3T on IMRs? According to my Integrating Eyeball tests, both lamps appear to be NOTICEABLY brighter when I replace my AW 18500 LiCos with 2x18500 IMR cells. It really gives a major boost in output... Having said that, I highly suspect that if you test the IMR-M3T on IMRs, it will either rival or beat the WA1111 on 2x18650 Li-Ions, what do you think?

Cheers.

 

[Dioni]

[...] According to my Integrating Eyeball tests, [...]

 

[mdocod]

Hi OutDoors Fanatic,

I have personally been amazed at the performance variations that can be measured and seen by simply changing from slightly older li-ion cells to newer cells, or from LiMn to LiCo or vice versa depending on load.

I have found that my Emoli cells, while good at driving bulbs like the MN21, (there is some obvious over-drive), are not as impressive as a pair of brand spanking new 18500s or 18650s when compared at lower loads. You have to realize though, that the Emoli cells I am using, while LiMn chemistry cells like the IMR cells from AW, are probably 5+ years old since their date of manufacture. So they do not have the capacity or voltage maintenance of those newer cells. In doing the tests, I wanted to try to stick to the same cell size/chemistry of the same age (brand new basically, less than 2 months from purchase date), for as many of the tests as possible to generate the most useful comparative data. I don't doubt that a pair of brand new IMR18650s from AW will drive any bulb brighter than a pair of 2 year old 18500s...

My experience with both the IMR-9L and IMR-M3T is that, they probably *need* a pair of modern IMR18650/18500s in order to perform as intended. I do not believe that it will run any brighter than the 1111, since the 1111 on a pair of 18650s actually draws more current and runs closer to insta-flash territory, suggesting more output if all other things are semi-equal.

Does that help any?

-Eric

 

[Phaserburn]

I love this thread. Do you have any WE LA's for comparison? It might be interesting to see the differences achieved in beam angle and spill for the same current drives. IIRC, WE drives their lamps @ 2.1A/3.7V, 1.3A/9V, 1.5A/13V.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Hi OutDoors Fanatic,

I have personally been amazed at the performance variations that can be measured and seen by simply changing from slightly older li-ion cells to newer cells, or from LiMn to LiCo or vice versa depending on load.

I have found that my Emoli cells, while good at driving bulbs like the MN21, (there is some obvious over-drive), are not as impressive as a pair of brand spanking new 18500s or 18650s when compared at lower loads. You have to realize though, that the Emoli cells I am using, while LiMn chemistry cells like the IMR cells from AW, are probably 5+ years old since their date of manufacture. So they do not have the capacity or voltage maintenance of those newer cells. In doing the tests, I wanted to try to stick to the same cell size/chemistry of the same age (brand new basically, less than 2 months from purchase date), for as many of the tests as possible to generate the most useful comparative data. I don't doubt that a pair of brand new IMR18650s from AW will drive any bulb brighter than a pair of 2 year old 18500s...

My experience with both the IMR-9L and IMR-M3T is that, they probably *need* a pair of modern IMR18650/18500s in order to perform as intended. I do not believe that it will run any brighter than the 1111, since the 1111 on a pair of 18650s actually draws more current and runs closer to insta-flash territory, suggesting more output if all other things are semi-equal.

Does that help any?

-Eric

Heck yeah, great post!

Thanks.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

I love this thread. Do you have any WE LA's for comparison? It might be interesting to see the differences achieved in beam angle and spill for the same current drives. IIRC, WE drives their lamps @ 2.1A/3.7V, 1.3A/9V, 1.5A/13V.

+1

That would be awesome.

 

[mdocod]

Sorry I didn't have any WE lamps to test otherwise I certainly would have included them. Unfortunately, it's been so long now that I can't recall the exact setup (distances from meter/wall/height from floor etc) so it would be difficult to add lamps to the shootout at this time without doing them all over again. Should have taken better notes.