Best thrower for wildlife-spotlighting

grandoflex

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Hi, I'm looking to get a new flashlight as an upgrade to my Fenix TK41. The key for me is really throw, as I want to use it to scan distant mountain sides in Scotland for wild cats, as well as for night birding. I'm happy to move to 18650 lights and not worried about size particularly (though smaller would be preferable of all other things were roughly equal). I guess runtime is also a factor, as it would be good to use on long-range settings for a decent amount of time - though I don't mean hours by this!

I've not been keeping up with new lights over the last couple of years do not that aware of what's out there - I do want a stock light though that I can get in the UK. I was wondering between the Thrunite TN32-UT or the Olight M3XS-UT Javelot or M2X-UT Javelot.

Any ideas whether these would be the way to go, or anything else I should consider! Thanks!
 

My3kidsfather

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I'm just gonna throw this out there- led light temperature itself may be a problem in locating animal fur colours. I first became aware of the color deficiencies of LEDs while checking out throw into a spruce tree on my neighbours lot a few years ago.

My 6p surefire Incan lit up the spruce cones, which were brown, very well- easy to see against the green needles. However when I flashed the same tree with my then current LED, a Surefire e2d led light the spruce cones were a light grey instead of brown, against a dull greyish green needle background. Without the lifelike color contrast the Incan light illuminated the brown/green contrast with it was more difficult to pick out the cones- they just looked washed out.

My point is that color temperature of the led used may play an even bigger role in locating blonde or brown skinned animals than how much light you may have. The new "neutral or warm white" LEDs may go a long way to helping you with better run times than incans.. But I am not completely convinced they are a complete replacement for shorter runtime incans yet. Something to consider maybe.
 

grandoflex

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Thanks, that's probably a fair point about colour. Though I've used the TK41 successfully, as eye shine is the easiest way to locate animals. I perhaps also ought to consider a light that has filters e.g red, green etc., as this light is supposed to be much better for not disturbing animals for prolonged viewing. Do any lights have these as available accessories, which might swing my choice?
 

grandoflex

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I also wonder whether I should add the Fenix TK61 to the list to consider?
 

grandoflex

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Thanks for the suggestion. Will add it to my thoughts. Anyone have any experience of the Olights and Thrunite that I mentioned in the first post?
 

TheShadowGuy

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While I don't have any personal experience, both brands are fairly reputable, I own lights from both companies and love them, and I've seen many good reviews for the M3XS-UT you mentioned. The M2x had less throw and tint issues, and I haven't seen that many reviews of that Thrunite model. I will say the M3XS UT is an impressive throw- it's rated for 1km and I've seen videos of people lighting up things hundreds of meters away visibly on camera. It doesn't have a lot of spill though, if you want spill, that K60vn is probably a better choice. Vinh does fantastic work.
 

pvsampson

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Thanks for the suggestion. Will add it to my thoughts. Anyone have any experience of the Olights and Thrunite that I mentioned in the first post?

I do.M2X and M3XS would suit what you are wanting them for.I use (one of) them every night to scan a ridge,and there is a dead tree behind that ridge @ 430mtr that is lit up no problem.
 

grandoflex

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Thanks. Is there a big difference between the M2X and M3XS, as there's quite a big price difference between them here in the UK at the moment ($160 vs $250)?
 

TEEJ

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The first thing to ask if the context is wildlife spotting is actually the minimum range it must have, and, will you be using your eyes, or, a scope/binoculars, etc, in conjunction with it?

Scenarios where you need to see a "distant mountain side" can be 100's of meters to miles of course...and to make out a bird in broad daylight at those ranges is typically an ambitious project to start with, let alone at night. A wild cat (Wildcat, as in lynx-type critter, or, house cat, that went feral?) would be variously hard to spot at those ranges in daylight as well, unless moving across open terrain typically.

Eye shine is easy on a nocturnal hunting cat of course, but not for a bird...especially a sleeping one. :D


To resolve a cat sized brown target at 200 meters for example will require an illumination goal of ~ 5-50 lux on the critter. A magnified optic with good light gathering, would be on the lower end of that range, and bare eyes at the other end.

To PUT 5 lux on something 200 meters away would require a light rated at ~ 200,000 cd.

To PUT 50 lux on something 200 meters away would require a light rated at ~ 2,000,000 cd. (cd = Two million)

Depending upon your degree of night adaptation during the search process, you need more or less, but the above assumes at least partial adaptation, typical in that scenario.

The more night adapted you are, the less cd you'll need to be able to resolve details. Also, as you become night adapted, your vision goes black and white, and you lose color vision.

If you are seeing in black and white, for maximum effectiveness, the tint of the light, the color rendition of the source, becomes progressively less relevant...and being able to make out the outline of your target, the texture of fur vs grass, etc, becomes progressively more important.

The longer the distance, the smaller percentage of your field of view it becomes. That means at very long ranges, to be ABLE to resolve fine details, you need your fovea, the ~ 2º cone of central vision, to bear on the target.

That part has mostly COLOR receptors, and horrifically poor low light ability...but the sharpest and best resolution part of your vision...if it can get enough light on targets to see them.

That all means that, for a long range night search, you typically need much much more light to resolve those distant targets.


When looking at SPECIFICATIONS for flashlights, they use the ANSI standard, which rates their range to 0.25 lux. For long ranges, 0.25 lux, ironically, is useless. 0.25 lux is ok to find the bathroom is strange hotel room, or your boots in your tent, etc, no problem...but is useless out in the field at 100 meter ranges.


That means you cannot shop by simply saying "I need to see 500 meters, so, I'll buy this light, because it says it throws 500 meters according to the advertisement/specs, so its going to be great!".

IE: 500 meters to 0.25 lux means that at 500 meters, you only have a cd of 62.5 k....giving you ~ 0.25 lux, at 500 m.

0.25 lux at 500 m is not going to tell you anything at all except that perhaps the light hit something...but telling a shoreline from more lake is about all you'd know, if seeing in 100% B&W, and, not if the shoreline had the dock you were looking for, or what kind of trees they were, and definitely not if there's a cat there too, etc. If you still COULD see any color, you'd see zero, total darkness out there at that range. Even at ONE lux, some people would have trouble even telling if there was water or shore out there at that range....let alone a dock...and forget about cats...UNLESS its only eye shine you need.



A good example is when one guy shines a light putting 0.25 lux at that long range, at another guy who is holding a book. It is not unusual for the guy with the light to not even be able to see the guy holding the book, but the guy WITH the book can actually READ the book by the light. This is because you can read by very low levels if you are night adapted, less than a lux, a tenth or 20th of a lux can even work...but, at several hundred meters, you can't see anything at all out there with that low a lux level.

Its a fun experiment to try...as the guy reading is always incredulous that you can't see him at all...yet he can read by your light :D


So, the more lux on target, the better, especially for small distant targets. If you NEED color to resolve the critters, you also then need a LOT more lux to be ABLE to at long ranges.


Sooooo, how far away do you want to be able to see what? (in meters)
 
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grandoflex

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Thanks Chaitanya for the recommendation, and many thanks Teej for your very detailed post. It's helped me to think about this very much, as I confess to just simplistically looking at throw distance figures before. I've also had a calculation of the sorts of distances I'd be likely to look across. I would say the maximum distance is likely to be 200m in this instance (maybe 250m). I tend to also use my binoculars (or possibly my scope) in conjuntion with the flashlight. I'd be looking initially for eyeshine of a hunting cat - wild cats in Scotland are essentially like large domestic tabby cats (and difficult to id too, due to feral tabbies and hybrids). There's also other wildlife up there like the occasional pine marten (I did spot one of those previously with my TK41) and large numbers of deer (and farm sheep). Obviously beyond seeing eye shine it would be great to be able to pick up some detail on anything I did manage to spot, but I realise this is going to be difficult. (Away from looking for these cats I will then use the torch for general wildlife spotlighting, where I don't think I'll be scanning such long distances.)
 

grandoflex

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Anyone have any more thoughts on The Thrunite TN32-UT, the Olight M3XS-UT Javelot, M2X-UT Javelot, or the Fenix TK61, since these are more easily available to the UK (the Modded Acebeam looks great but I think will end up costing me lots in import charges).
 

TheShadowGuy

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Anyone have any more thoughts on The Thrunite TN32-UT, the Olight M3XS-UT Javelot, M2X-UT Javelot, or the Fenix TK61, since these are more easily available to the UK (the Modded Acebeam looks great but I think will end up costing me lots in import charges).
The page for the TK61 says that it is out of production and Fenix is going to release a new thrower for 2016, just as an FYI.
Barring price differences, my recommendation would go M3XS>TN32>M2X and TK61. They are all great lights, just the XPL HI based lights have greater throw and the M3XS has a wide body of quality reviews.
A lot of it comes down to price. Is the extra throw and better tint worth the large price premium you described between the M3XS and M2X? That's up to you. If the Thrunite is significantly cheaper than the M3XS, it also is a very solid contender. It's biggest downside is that it takes a lot more batteries, which requires more care and a larger collection of batteries.
I'd also recommend looking at some beamshots and direct comparisons between the lights. It might help you decide.
 

grandoflex

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Thanks ShadowGuy, this probably explains why I can get a good price on the Fenix.
 

grandoflex

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So, given Teej's great post about needing 200,000 cd to put 5 lux on a target 200m away, could anyone recommend a good light around 250,000 cd that I could use to shine on targets around 200/250 metres away?
 

Parrot Quack

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So, given Teej's great post about needing 200,000 cd to put 5 lux on a target 200m away, could anyone recommend a good light around 250,000 cd that I could use to shine on targets around 200/250 metres away?

Sure. The Nitecore TM36 Lite. At 310,000 CD it will easily meet your needs and a bit less expensive, the Nitecore TM16. But at 122,500 it's a bit below your specifications.
 
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