From his 6500sq ft ocean side mansion......
BYD, threat to US automakers or the new VW BUG?
- Thread starter mrfixitman
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Mister Ed is watching .....
must ... resist ... posting. 😁
must ... resist ... posting. 😁
Japanese cars in the 70's were not allowed a free market in USA, right? Then they were allowed and the US auto industry had to improve.
They eventually did.
Now some are using fear to incite protectionism against cheapo electric cars. Is that a free market?
New cars are failing at unprecedented rates, and it's getting worse
New cars now have double the number of problems they had in 2010. It's understandable that COVID-19 should impact automotive quality ... but the stats show that things will get much worse for the American Automotive Industry before they get better.
newatlas.com
mrfixitman
Enlightened
If you have a solar collector or windmill or a paddle wheel on your creek, the benefits go way up.People can pick & choose what stats they want to...but I use cradle-to-grave, including fuel consumed. That to me is the total environmental cost of the car. I did detailed math when I was looking for a new car and seriously was considering an EV. But the environmental cost of an EV didn't make sense. That's why I drive the current ICE I do -- even using gasoline, it's still MUCH friendlier for the environment than EVs.
What an environmental disaster! First, all of the mining needed to produce that amount of Li-Ion batteries (not to mention child labour). It takes 2,000 liters of water to mine 1 kilo of lithium. So, about 230,000 liters just to mine the lithium needed for a SINGLE Tesla battery pack. This DOES NOT include the resources needed for the remaining components of the battery pack. In the USA, this mining is done in the Southwest, which already has serious water supply issues.
PBS recently had some good reports on this. Just a few such articles from PBS:
Lithium Liabilities: The untold threat to water in the rush to mine American lithium
An investigation from the Howard Center at Arizona State University uncovered the coming electric battery revolution in America will require billions upon billions of gallons of water to mine lithium. Many of the new U.S. mines will be located in the drought-prone American West.cronkitenews.azpbs.org
Lessons from abroad: the environmental and social costs to lithium mining in Argentina.
One of North America's lithium mining powerhouse companies has lobbied for a record $1 billion Department of Energy low-interest loan — despite having never owned or operated any kind of mine in the U.S.cronkitenews.azpbs.org
Second, conversion losses. I'm still using Lead-Acid batteries my solar setup which has about 25% losses when charging, but the Telsa folks are reporting 20-30% charging efficiency. A 30% loss when charging a 3000MWh battery works out to 900,000,000 watts wasted/hr. For reference a space heater uses 1,500 watts, so you're effectively running 600,000 space heaters, releasing their heat straight into the environment for an hour, to charge that monstrosity.
I'm not anti-EV. I'm actually kicking around the idea of picking up one of Hertz's 2023 Tesla Model 3s for $22k. At that price all of the depreciation has already occurred, and with an 8 year battery warranty, not too much risk for 'beater' around-the-town car. I'm under no grand illusions though. Is it environmentally-friendly? NO. Moving the emissions from the tailpipe to smokestack, or worse, disastrous green energy pipe dream, doesn't change the picture. The road to hell is paved with good intentions at best, with corruption at worst.
Jealous?
pnwoutdoors
Enlightened
I'd like to see continued efforts by competing technologies to prove themselves fully, to the point the marketplace can determine which will be the "best" alternative. I'd like to see various states attempting to heavily adopt various alternatives, to get involved with building numerous "test towns/cities" to explore viability of such. If BYD or a dozen other makers "make it" with their variation on the theme, more power to 'em. I suspect the solution for "American" vehicle makers won't involve GM crushing the lot, again. But then, you never know.
Lived within 40mi of downtown Los Angeles in the 1960s and 1970s. A vast effort was put into place to clean up the air quality prior to the 1984 Olympic Games. And it made a huge difference. Improvements in technologies are about the only thing that has kept the air breathable given the huge population increase the region has seen since the late 1950s.
I've been the Los Angeles area a handful of times since the 1990s, and the air quality's greatly improved. Can't imagine how awful it would now be, had those changes and the sharper policies of the CARB not been implemented. Countless cities in Asia and Central/South America are examples of what can happen when such emissions are not harshly curtailed, when such fuels are not effectively managed. Can't imagine just how much a person's life gets cut short, living a lifetime in such places.
Of course, that said, the asmospherics and environmentals on a given day can vary. So, no telling how good or bad it might be between visits. I recall countless days in the 1970s, for example, being incapable of breathing easily the remainder of a day when I ran 5-10mi or cycled 20-30mi. From the people I know who still live in the region, few of them describe such days even existing, nowadays, at least nowhere near how bad it was back then. I'm sure the ~25M people between San Diego and Barstow and Santa Barbara are very pleased with whatever changes have allowed them to continue breathing, by comparison to what it could be.
Lived within 40mi of downtown Los Angeles in the 1960s and 1970s. A vast effort was put into place to clean up the air quality prior to the 1984 Olympic Games. And it made a huge difference. Improvements in technologies are about the only thing that has kept the air breathable given the huge population increase the region has seen since the late 1950s.
I've been the Los Angeles area a handful of times since the 1990s, and the air quality's greatly improved. Can't imagine how awful it would now be, had those changes and the sharper policies of the CARB not been implemented. Countless cities in Asia and Central/South America are examples of what can happen when such emissions are not harshly curtailed, when such fuels are not effectively managed. Can't imagine just how much a person's life gets cut short, living a lifetime in such places.
Of course, that said, the asmospherics and environmentals on a given day can vary. So, no telling how good or bad it might be between visits. I recall countless days in the 1970s, for example, being incapable of breathing easily the remainder of a day when I ran 5-10mi or cycled 20-30mi. From the people I know who still live in the region, few of them describe such days even existing, nowadays, at least nowhere near how bad it was back then. I'm sure the ~25M people between San Diego and Barstow and Santa Barbara are very pleased with whatever changes have allowed them to continue breathing, by comparison to what it could be.
Toulouse42
Enlightened
You know, I've been ignoring a particular member for a couple of weeks now and I highly recommend it. Never felt so good in my life.
There was an article about that a few years back and yes, it is more environmentally friendly to maintain the current cars we have than to get an EV.
It's Colorado, no surprise there.
As if you don't already know.
mrfixitman
Enlightened
I am not kidding. Please spell it out. There is a social disconnect here. Explain it like you would to a child of whatever age level you find appropriate.
letschat7
Flashlight Enthusiast
Go on.
mrfixitman
Enlightened
This is not helping. I tell what I have experienced, you can take the information or ignore. It has served me well and I expect more success in the future. That you don't want to spell it out for me says something, but I have no idea what.
mrfixitman
Enlightened
letschat7
Flashlight Enthusiast
I never watched SG1 just the first film. Incidently I recall those slaves around Ra. I wonder if they used any cool lights in that film?
mrfixitman
Enlightened
I couldn't find your article but I found scores of these:
Is It Good for the Environment to Replace My Used Car With an Electric Vehicle?
Even though it's typically better for the environment to use products as long as you can, in this case the answer is probably yes.
www.vice.com
I don't remember if they used any cool lights.
Since when is vice a legitimate news source?I couldn't find your article but I found scores of these:
Is It Good for the Environment to Replace My Used Car With an Electric Vehicle?
Even though it's typically better for the environment to use products as long as you can, in this case the answer is probably yes.
@TPA, are you able to share the math you did to arrive at the conclusion that the ICE you chose is more environmentally friendly, cradle to grave, than a comparable EV?
I've done personal $ cost and convenience calculations which led me to hold off on an EV for a while, but never an environmental one.
The overwhelming majority of info I'm finding indicates EVs are vastly more environmentally sound, wheel-to-wheel and cradle-to-grave. The link I shared earlier from the Department of Energy referencing a very lengthy report (alluded to by @mrfixitman ) which includes their estimate on cradle-to-grave emissions. I found this C2G chart particularly interesting. Of note is that Ethanol (E85) engines seem to out compete hybrids:
Lithium extraction does seem pretty environmentally costly and difficult to accurately quantify. There are studies like this one that estimating the life long materials and carbon footprint of EVs is still no where near that of ICEs, but I'm not sure what to make of them. However, since oil extraction is also extremely costly and the materials expendable, it's easy for me to think of it as a tit-for-tat comparrision, similar to the way I regard the subsidies question.
