Cool White vs Neutral white

kaichu dento

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Not entirely certain I've ever actually seen a cool white light in my presence.
You've seen the incandescent equivalent every time you see headlights that a glaringly white or worse yet, blue, coming towards you at night.

As Wildcatter was pointing out, blue is not good in fog or anything else for that matter, other than looking cool that is.
 

Fire/medic

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Hey guys, I think I'm still pretty new to these things. Can someone help me? What are the pros and cons of a cool tint and a warm tint?

I just don't get it. Some people to just seems just crazy over warm tints even though they know it won't be as efficient in terms of output/runtime compared to LEDs with cool tint.

Whats the deal here?

Thank you in advance :popcorn:

The cool lights just looks blue to me, like those annoying fake HID car headlights you see running around. It is brighter, but gives object unnatural colors. The warm is suppose to be like standard filament bulbs your used to seeing everything in at night. The neutral is like fluorescent light used in shopping stores and seem to me to best choice, but the warm is nice as well
 

Modernflame

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Nice bump!

What I've learned is that everything has a place in my collection. I've got 3000K, 4000K, 5000K, and 6000K, and CRI ranging from 70 to 90+.

@Fire/Medic. Cool white LED's definitely contain blue, but so does midday sunlight. Color rendition may be the more pertinent issue, though. Some CW LED's can produce CRI above 90, but the most common cool emitters measure about 70 CRI. I recommend the Tint Snob Thread on this forum for more discussion.

:welcome:
 

eh4

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I really think that over and above CRI, the Kruithof curve affects our impression of cool, neutral, and warm led light. If there's enough thousands of lumens at close enough range, I'll be happy with cool white, but since I'm usually using less lumens for a given range, I prefer neutral, and for very low light levels regarding the distance, warm light is much preferable to me.
High CRI is another level of quality beyond this more utilitarian aspect.
Try a cool white moonlight mode light, and then a warm white moonlight, looking at detail is particularly telling, reading for instance.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve
 

Boris74

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NW for up close carry all day work and CW for hard hitting throw. At 200-300 yards I don't care about colors, I want to see period and CW does that better. Up close the NW is easier on the eyes, works better at very low lumens you actually use in complete darkness and makes color ID easier. Makes ID of plants and animals easier instead of washing them out in bark or brush or leaves.

I just got my cyber monday MT40GT and I first off noticed it's extremly neutral compared to every other CW Nitecore I've seen. I thought my streamlights were more neutral and this light makes them look solid CW. Still not "real" NW but it's not nitecore CW either. This beast throws to the wood line just over 400M from the front door. Works even better in this snow. Still wish it hit a bit harder being more CW but it makes the same lumen HL-X look 40% dimmer. It hits hard for the same lumens, lots more candela though.
 

bykfixer

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Last night as I entered a local WalMart I encountered one of my photography mentors. He was there looking for a light bulb to use for his photography.

He started to "school me" on LED's... cool vs warm, CRI, kelvins and all that. My wife quipped to his girlfriend "they're going to be here a while"... knowing he was in WalMart looking for warm curly-fry bulbs for his studio I just listened to him explain, thanked him for his time and commented "I use flashlights for photography for fill lighting". He asked how I can hold it. To his surprise I pulled a 1 cell flashlight from my pocket and demonstrated the cigar hold.

I say all of that not to enter into this debate as I believe brightness plays a role in what we perceive along with personal preference.

To say a chart prooves this or that is same as daylight is like saying Tang has the exact vitamin C as an orange. I'll leave it at that. Being my former mentor has recently discovered LED tech I figure it's best to let him learn by trial and error this winter, then next Spring at the arts & crafts show I see him at each year I'll see how much he has learned then perhaps have a real discussion...
 
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kaichu dento

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I really think that over and above CRI, the Kruithof curve affects our impression of cool, neutral, and warm led light. If there's enough thousands of lumens at close enough range, I'll be happy with cool white, but since I'm usually using less lumens for a given range, I prefer neutral, and for very low light levels regarding the distance, warm light is much preferable to me.
High CRI is another level of quality beyond this more utilitarian aspect.
Try a cool white moonlight mode light, and then a warm white moonlight, looking at detail is particularly telling, reading for instance.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve
Really good food for thought for those who haven't thought much about it yet, that is how preference can change so much dependent on output, application, desired results, distance and surroundings.

While I've been a warm/neutral warm fan from the start, I still enjoy a smooth, floody cool white at very low levels, and anyone else that has spent much time walking in the moonlight will too. That's the main reason I never had my Titan or my bronze Ion modded.
 

eh4

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Really good food for thought for those who haven't thought much about it yet, that is how preference can change so much dependent on output, application, desired results, distance and surroundings.

While I've been a warm/neutral warm fan from the start, I still enjoy a smooth, floody cool white at very low levels, and anyone else that has spent much time walking in the moonlight will too. That's the main reason I never had my Titan or my bronze Ion modded.

That's interesting, one of the issues that I have with bluish light at low levels is that I can't see high resolution in my center of focus, and there's something about the wavelength of light at higher temps and the ability of the eye to focus on those wavelengths, that's where red leaning, lower color temperature shines (focuses).
But alternately, dim bluish light should be more effective for peripheral vision, which is how I find myself using actual moonlight anyways, avoiding holes and sticks, branches at eye level, etc.
My dislike of bluish light at low levels comes from difficulty with central focus, and the feeling of brightness without seeing well.
That's not a problem for me with peripheral vision.
I'll have to try walking in some woods with a cool, dim , floody light.
 
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kaichu dento

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That's interesting, one of the issues that I have with bluish light at low levels is that I can't see high resolution in my center of focus, and there's something about the wavelength of light at higher temps and the ability of the eye to focus on those wavelengths, that's where red leaning, lower color temperature shines.
But alternately, dim bluish light should be more effective for peripheral vision, which is how I find myself using actual moonlight anyways, avoiding holes and sticks, branches at eye level, etc.
My dislike of bluish light at low levels comes from difficulty with central focus, and the feeling of brightness without seeing well.
That's not a problem for me with peripheral vision.
I'll have to try walking in some woods with a cool, dim , floody light.
I don't know if there are other warm tint fans who enjoy the really low level floody coolish light, but I love moonlight, and if all I'm doing is walking, I love that sort of lighting. Everything else, including painting outside last night and tonight, 3500k all the way.
 

MichaelW

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I wish that someone in the corrupt Chicago-land governments would have read about the differences between warm/neutral/cool white before they spent who knows how much on LED street lights. 5000k (and low CRI) has ruined everything.
I think that a 4000K 80CRI would have been acceptable, if the old style distribution was retained. Nope, now there are areas of over illumination and areas of darkness.
 

lumen aeternum

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NW for up close carry all day work and CW for hard hitting throw. At 200-300 yards I don't care about colors, I want to see period and CW does that better. .
Better how? Does CW require fewer OTF lumens to provide adequte target spotting and thus have less glare from near-field reflected light? Does a "less colorful" image allow better target spotting (vice recognition of "nature" things as opposed to man-made objects)? Seems to me that the cost of CW & NW is going to be the same, for equal lumens. But needing less lumens may be cheaper, and less near field glare can be critical (in woods & brush for example).
 

bykfixer

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Trying to get an LED to mimic the sun is like trying to get the benefits of brocoli in a pill...
Man aint smart enough to do that.
Oh, we can place all kinds of data on a piece of paper using all kinds of methods to get people to see what it means, but the fact still remains... man will never reproduce a perfect sunlight tint in an LED.

So what do we do? Quit trying? No way!!
We trudge on creating products that create a pleasing experience for the user. And let's face it, no two users are the same.

It's like trying to get a vegetarian to eat a cheeseburger.
Do some LED's cause colors to look wrong? Yup. And so do some light bulbs.

It all boils down to what the user prefers, and what appears correct to the user from the various tints offered.
They're all getting pretty good at casting light into darkness in a realistic looking way. It's how the light maker applies the technology that can make a difference.
If my eyes are overcome by a cool white, a neutral or a warm... my eyes are not going to judge colors correctly. If my eyes see a correct amount of light on a given object they will adapt and understand what they see in more cases then not.

I own lights with cool, neutral, warm and a ton of variantions between that. I own literally hundreds of flashlights from 1909 to 2017. Yet a 6200 kelvin beam is my personal favorite simply because it's what my eyes prefer regardless of what the charts n graphs... the beam shots and rated CRI say I am supposed to prefer....
 

Modernflame

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I own lights with cool, neutral, warm and a ton of variantions between that. I own literally hundreds of flashlights from 1909 to 2017. Yet a 6200 kelvin beam is my personal favorite simply because it's what my eyes prefer regardless of what the charts n graphs... the beam shots and rated CRI say I am supposed to prefer....

Hey Byk, can you direct me to a thread with photos of those older lights? I've got a feeling they're posted somewhere around here.
 

Modernflame

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I am an Equal Opportunity Employer of beam tints. I have a dream that one day flashlights will be judged not by the color of their output but by the content of their gadgetry.
 
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lumen aeternum

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I am an Equal Opportunity Employer of beam tints. I have a dream that one day flashlights will be judged not by the color of their output but by the content of their gadgetry.

OTOH you have that market for affinity tints...
Klan White
Chocolate City Brown
Pride Multi-Color Emitter
Awareness Pink
Stanley Kubrik Ultra V.
Phlebotomist Blue
 

shock003

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Love this thread. A debate I have had often.

Here is how I boil it down (and keep thinking of making a YouTube video explaining my personal take)

In my living room, where things are cozy with sofas, TV, fireplace, pillows, sleeping dog; I (like most people) love the "warmth" of the typical incandescent. Which is now available in LED household bulbs. So let's call these Neutral White.

In my laundry room and garage, I am performing tasks. I need bright light. So, I use Cool White LED's in the Laundry room. In the garage I still use the typical fluorescent tubes. Let's refer to these as Cool White.

So for me. It is all about the task at hand when selecting a tint.
I have mostly Cool White lights but I have 'built' some custom Convoys using my favorite NW tint: XP-L v6 3D. It is rated at about 4500K.
I made another light with a NICHIA 219c. rated about 4000K.
These two are BEAUTIFUL NW LEDs. Colors are arguably better looking. No doubt.
But for my majority of uses, I still prefer CW. NW looks 'dimmer'. I am sure we can all agree on that.
Look at any spec for a light that offers both. The Lux/Lumens are always less on a NW due to reasons listed on this thread... like the extra coating to kill out the blue-ish tints.
So if a new LED is out, the CW will always be a bit brighter and will sway my decision so I can have a brighter light. (I like to show off!)
Now, of course reflectors and drivers play into the brightness levels (we can all agree) but apples to apples comparison...there is a difference.
Around the house, I will (almost) always pick up a NW light. Heck, even in the garage at times. But a NW is used when I am working within arms length. Again, depends what I am doing or need.

On reviews I've read through the years... a lot of times people don't clearly explain their uses of the light they love. Which would greatly help others decide 'hmm, that sounds like me and my intended use... I think I'll listen to this person's input'.... So....

Here is what I tell friends.
For close up work (less than 10-20 feet roughly) indoors or even outdoors: NW is amazing. Especially if someone is using indoors or is an electrician or just loves that NW feel. It is easier on the eyes - very noticeable when using in close up work. Like reading a book. That is when lights similar to the Zebralight Floody lights and the ones without reflectors are going to be perfect choices. (again, IMHO). I would never use those for outdoors. EVER. Not for my type of outdoors use that is. CW is what I desire. I know what color trees are and I want everything lit up BRIGHT.

For me; I backpack a ton in the Pacific Northwest. And more times than you would think my friends and I have hiked miles on end in the dead of night. (for many many reasons. Actually, night hikes ROCK!) And a great CW light has always (hands down) been my choice. (again, for me) but here is why.
First, I use CW in the 5700K range (like the ZL H600) It isn't angry blue like early LEDs. (Note: I tried a NW while on snow at night and it makes it look brown and dirty... CW is much more pleasing in snow.
Second, I want (need?) extreme brightness. So although the colors may not be as pleasant as NW, I LOVE the PURE, white light. I am outdoors, on a mission... doing a task if you will.... Kinda like when I am doing other tasks ... like in the laundry room or garage ... but now the task is outdoors and I need to see a cliff or where the trail goes up ahead 30-60 feet away. (Or if I just want to show off to my friends!)
Now I know, there are some NW lights that throw. But I am not going to backpack with something like the Thrunite TN32 due to size. (That light has been mentioned on this thread as an awesome NW thrower light is why I mention it.) However, I have been VERY tempted to buy the ZL SC600w HI NW (the HI dedomed LED has some throw). I'd use it as a hand held light for 'what's up over there' kinda light. Very tempted. Because it is NW and a bit of throw but still some good spill. hmmm.... I am torn. If there was a CW dedomed version - I'd lean more toward buying that to satsify my desire for a flood/throw in one light.

Actually, if I had DEEP pockets I would buy several ZL to do a video comparison. An Apples - to - Apples comparison. But that means I need to buy several identical models. a CW, a NW, and a NW HI (just because it would be neat to see NW HI compared because it will have some throw to it. But I suspect the CW would win my heart over as always being a tad brighter.) When I go into lava tubs (essentially caves) NW does win my heart over because of the tint and I feel NW works best in a contained envirnoment. The wilderness just seems to swallow up the NW too much for me.

What is my ideal outdoorsy set up at the moment? I selected these for how compact they are.... again... for backpacking or walking the dog during dark winter nights. These are generally my go to lights.

1) For Headlamp: I use a ZL H600 MKIII CW. (AKA: " My Precious") LOVE IT! I mean LOVE it. I used to make my own headlamps from scratch for many years. Now, finally something is as bright as my homemade lights.
2) For Throw: I use the Nitecore MH20GT (came in handy on a recent cave trip to see really deep ahead of us into one of the spur tunnels of the cave)
3) AAA Maratac Titanum keychain light. Always with me and actually used it on a night hike in the Grand Canyon in my hand - which gives much better shadow depth as opposed to having the light on your head and close to eye level. I am glad I bought it when I did... they are stuck on Cooper/Brass versions now. ugh)
4) Fenix CL09 as a lantern. (just bought it a month ago and haven't used it much in the field) Wish it had a button rather than twisty head. A button is easier to activate in a tent rather than using two hands to twist for activation. Fenix fails in that 'user centered design' department on this light. But still, I love it for the tiny size and brightness. Wow!

Those are my perfect lights. Of course I own a bunch of others and love those also for other uses. But if I listed those other lights here....i'd have to move to the other thread! Hahah.

Well, I hope my opinions help others.
And honestly... I still to this day struggle at times with which Tints to get and then I have to rein myself in (due to funds) and clearly think about my intended uses for a light.
I'll admit... one day I may find a NW light that will flip all this around for me. Been debating myself recently with the new MKIV ZL's: SC600 MK IV (CW) or SC600w MK IV HI (NW)
(i know... "get em both!" is what everyone says/does)
 
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Keitho

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Very well thought-out and well-written post, shock003. I think you very clearly and convincingly stated my exact opinion of a couple years ago. What prompted me to re-think the outdoors-vs-indoors thinking about color temp was that I started buying and testing out lights that could produce "enough" output for my outdoor uses, even with very nice warm color temp and high CRI, and even while staying ultralight and small. (Specifically, the most recent 2 generations of Zebralights have some very efficient warmer and higher-CRI offerings in side-clicky and headlamp versions. Other manufacturers also have some nearly-comparable offerings suitable for lightweight outdoor applications.)

It is all very personal, as we all are after different things outdoors. But, when I'm on my mountain bike or I'm backpacking, I've really come around to enjoying the effect that the warmer color temp has on my experience. So, I think I'm now at a point where I select a light based on the impact that I want it to have on the "recipient" of my lumens. My emergency car lights that I might use to warn other drivers--I want the message to be "Wake Up!", so they are cool, high-power lights. My "be seen" lights on my bike also are cool, "wake up" kind of lights. The lights I use during the day, at work and in my shop, are as close to sunlight as I can find (color and CRI).

But, when the sun goes down, my color temp preference drops with the ambient light and air temp. My wandering-in-the-woods-after-dark lights are warm, and as high-CRI as I can find, because that's my personal preference for how I want my light to make me feel when I'm by myself outdoors. I enjoy the artificially-rich reds, browns, and greens--a nighttime version of rose-colored glasses for my tiny little puddle of illumination in a very large, dark universe.
 
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