Coronavirus - II

[idleprocess]

Let's get some facts straight. A mask does not protect you directly from getting corona virus. The virus is so small, N95 masks and HEPA filters can fail getting the virus out of the air.

The ' mosquito through a chain-link fence' analogy is flawed.

While the occasional viral particle might be ejected into the air freebird, the overwhelming majority ride in water droplets many orders of magnitude larger that even a T-shirt or bandana will intercept. It takes some ~3000 viral particles ingested at once via a common pathway for an infection to take root. In the case of quality filter media - N95, KN95, FFP2.5, PM2.5, etc - the depth of a 'pore' relative to the width is substantial and electrostatic forces attract particles that are smaller than the pores into the media, accounting for the occasional free-floating viral particles as well as smaller aerosol water droplets.

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

Despite what some have said, nothing being done is even remotely unconstitutional. The government has broad powers to act in an emergency, including restrictions on travel and business.

First, states put limits on emergency powers as does the federal government. They usually have a time limit for emergency declarations before an executive (governor or president) has to get approval from the legislature to continue the order or end it. The president can declare war but has to get Congress' approval to pay for and continue the war after 90 days. Many states have similar laws in place for emergency declarations putting a time limit before they expire unless the legislature consents to extend them. Many state governors, California's included have decided to keep renewing the same executive order as if it's a different one without the legislature's consent. This is unconstitutional and illegal and is being challenged in the courts. Second, don't tell me that shutting down all churches and gun shops in a state isn't unconstitutional. It clearly is and is also being challenged in court. A law has to be equally applied or it can be deemed illegal. Don't tell me these laws have been equally applied when they pick winners and losers. You can't restrict the rights of one group more than that of another and you can't arbitrarily call one business essential and another not and provide no remedy to add businesses to the essential list. States and the federal government are prohibited from making laws punishing specific groups of people or individuals (bill of attainder), making laws and punishing someone for it after the fact (ex post facto law), or making laws violating the obligation of contracts. These restrictions are under Article 1 Sections 9 and 10 of the U.S. Constitution. There have been plenty examples of these restrictions being violated.

 

[turbodog]

...

This one is on the death of expertise:

https://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/

...

Despite what some have said, nothing being done is even remotely unconstitutional. The government has broad powers to act in an emergency, including restrictions on travel and business.

I recommend reading the whole book if you are interested.

Also, yup, gov't has BROAD powers in an emergency. Our local health department has ARREST powers right now. And violating a quarantine is a FELONY.

 

[LeanBurn]

I am just glad that there have been zero regular flu deaths in 2020 as it has been cured. Finally some good news ! :thumbsup:

 

[turbodog]

... executive order as if it's a different one without the legislature's consent. This is unconstitutional and illegal and is being challenged in the courts. ...

Legally I would say there is good precedent dating back to the war powers act.

Also, people are getting hung up on the governor's orders. I think it's moot. Your state board of health has very broad powers in a public health emergency. At least here... they can enact all sorts of restrictions without the governor's approval.

Yes, this will be litigated for the next 10 years. But right now... with the surge ramping up (and winter coming), good luck.

Finally... paragraphs are your friend.

 

[jtr1962]

Second, don't tell me that shutting down all churches and gun shops in a state isn't unconstitutional. It clearly is and is also being challenged in court. A law has to be equally applied or it can be deemed illegal. Don't tell me these laws have been equally applied when they pick winners and losers. You can't restrict the rights of one group more than that of another and you can't arbitrarily call one business essential and another not and provide no remedy to add businesses to the essential list.

That's all addressed here.

The restrictions typically prohibit mass gatherings of people, especially indoors where the spread is at least an order of magnitude higher. Stadiums were closed, along churches, restaurants, gyms, etc. Also, any business which could function remotely, whether essential or not, was allowed to keep operating. The hard fact is whether the government shuttered certain businesses or not they were going to suffer. Do you really think hordes of people would be patronizing these businesses once they saw they were basically superspreaders? However, by keeping them open the employees of these businesses would likely become sick, adding to the already high caseload in many hospitals. I don't like the idea of cutting off someone's livelihood any more than the next person, but this is a major health emergency. As I've said several times already, the major failure was not giving people income support while they couldn't earn a living. One $1200 check doesn't cut it.

Remember also the highest duty of government is to defend our shores against enemies foreign and domestic. This virus is best thought of as an invading enemy. I'm fine with any restrictions the government imposes until the time comes that we have mass vaccinations and new cases drop to near zero. At that point I'll certainly support anyone who is against continuing the current restrictions, but my guess is they will be voluntarily lifted once they're no longer necessary.

 

[turbodog]

And building on that... the quickest way to prolong this is to try and reopen fully too quickly.

I was surprised, but pleased, that a statewide mask mandate was actually able to keep the numbers in MS in check. We were able to have restaurants open, bars open, theaters open, and so on.

Then the governor removed the mask mandate... and numbers are exploding.

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

My guess is the restrictions will ease off after the election. The disparity between how the churches have been treated vs. protests doesn't give politicians a leg to stand on legally and they know it. I think some benefit politically from having people suffering by pointing to federal leadership to blame. I would hope our politicians weren't so sinister, but all evidence is to the contrary. A lot of people have a lot of mistakes to answer for. Some will lose their jobs by getting voted out and some will be sued. The government can't afford to replace all the lost revenue from all the businesses it destroyed though it is solely to blame for all of them. They are getting stingy with money which means they're running out of it. The economy has to start opening up again for our country to function. We can't go on like this forever with these lockdowns. Something's got to give.

 

[markr6]

The ' mosquito through a chain-link fence' analogy is flawed.

While the occasional viral particle might be ejected into the air freebird, the overwhelming majority ride in water droplets many orders of magnitude larger that even a T-shirt or bandana will intercept. It takes some ~3000 viral particles ingested at once via a common pathway for an infection to take root. In the case of quality filter media - N95, KN95, FFP2.5, PM2.5, etc - the depth of a 'pore' relative to the width is substantial and electrostatic forces attract particles that are smaller than the pores into the media, accounting for the occasional free-floating viral particles as well as smaller aerosol water droplets.

Sort of like water filter types. I use a .1 micron absolute filter when backpacking and mostly trust it. If I had something lesser, I guess it would give some peace of mind...but I could end up sleeping on the bathroom floor drinking Pepto Bismol a week later wishing I was dead.

Absolute: Filter Rating meaning 99.9% of the particles larger than a specified micron rating will be trapped on or within the filter.

Nominal: Filter Rating indicating the approximate size particle, the majority of which will not pass through the filter. It is generally interpreted as meaning that 85% of the particles of the size equal to the nominal filter rating will be retained by the filter.

Mosquito thru the fence...half of which is covered by spider webs.

 

[turbodog]

linked to a now-deleted post

ignore

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

I've spent a fair amount of time watching OANN until I just got sick of their misinformation. In short, they might as well be a propaganda ministry for the current administration. .....

It's not hard to find plenty of legitimate sources condemning OANN ...

Still, whom would you rather be in a Zoom meeting with - OAN's Christina Bobb -

or the New Yorker's / CNN's Jeffery Toobin?

 

[jtr1962]

Still, whom would you rather be in a Zoom meeting with - OAN's Christina Bobb -

or the New Yorker's / CNN's Jeffery Toobin?

I actually had to look them both up. I'll admit Mr. Toobin's conduct is far worse but I'm not sure I'd want to be in a Zoom meeting with either of them. To OANN's credit, when they just report the news, instead of giving opinion pieces, they're not bad. That's actually why I used to watch it. But their opinion pieces are just horrible.

 

[archimedes]

.... I'm fine with any restrictions the government imposes until the time comes that we have mass vaccinations and new cases drop to near zero....

Very very few vaccines are 100% effective, or 100% safe, let alone both.

Could end up being a long long wait ....

 

[jtr1962]

Very very few vaccines are 100% effective, or 100% safe, let alone both.

Could end up being a long long wait ....

I'm aware of that but even a vaccine which is 50% effective is far better than nothing. Also, in the other 50% who don't get immunity from the vaccine most likely if they do catch it their case will be far more mild.

I don't think we'll stamp this virus out in the general population for at least a few years but vaccines and other measures could reduce the number of cases to the point where testing and contact tracing allows us to control flare-ups while safely keeping the country open.

 

[jtr1962]

And building on that... the quickest way to prolong this is to try and reopen fully too quickly

Yep. I liken the current response to continually picking at a scab instead of allowing the cut to heal.

I was surprised, but pleased, that a statewide mask mandate was actually able to keep the numbers in MS in check. We were able to have restaurants open, bars open, theaters open, and so on.

Then the governor removed the mask mandate... and numbers are exploding.

Which is evidence that masks work, even if not perfect. In Asian countries where mask compliance is near 100% there's not even much transmission on crowded public transit. If we want to keep things open, we have to wear masks until case numbers nationwide fall very low.

Here in NYC until October our numbers held at very low levels. Then people started getting complacent about mask wearing, even though it's still required if you can't keep at least 6 feet apart. We had some flare-ups but we're controlling it with selective shut-downs only in certain zip codes. We want to avoid a repeat of the statewide shutdown we had earlier if at all possible.

 

[wacbzz]

Still, whom would you rather be in a Zoom meeting with - OAN's Christina Bobb -
...
or the New Yorker's / CNN's Jeffery Toobin?

Given what we now know, I guess, in fairness, it would depend on which sex one finds fairer, and honestly, if Toobin is the one that is the choice, perhaps a Zoom meeting with him would be much...more revealing.

 

[raggie33]

my self included im ashamed of how this covid 19 bought out the worst of many of us. me included im going to improve

 

[Poppy]

Still, whom would you rather be in a Zoom meeting with - OAN's Christina Bobb -

or the New Yorker's / CNN's Jeffery Toobin?

LOL Chance, I miss read your post. I thought you wanted to know who I would prefer to be in bed with!

I don't follow OAN, but she is pretty!

 

[matrixshaman]

I won't waste my time arguing with or responding to those who won't see the truth from doctors, scientists and data I present here. You can take it or leave it. Use it or not. Your choice.


This is from America's Frontline doctors. The one speaking the first 12 minutes is a certified physician and also a Stanford educated attorney. They are standing in front of America's Supreme court. The first 12 minutes or so gives a great deal of info about the great mask hoax and why it should not be mandated or even pushed on people.


In the first two minutes you get info about a doctor who is treating patients for Covid 19 for FREE in all 50 states by just going to his website. Out of 1900 positive cases ALL recovered using HCQ and a couple other items and only one out of the 1900 needed to be hospitalized. There was ZERO mortality rate with the patients they treated. Another doctor has a clinic in an area one of the highest risk populations. His clinic saw over 20,000 patients and they had ZERO deaths and only ONE hospitalization.


These are the genuinely good doctors. These doctors are being told NOT to treat the patients with HCQ. They are ignoring it and saving lives. The mainstream media is spreading LIES. The FDA, CDC and WHO are controlled by big money - not by concern for your health.


And of course this is where you also get to ogle a bit more at OAN's Christina Bobb:


Banned on Youtube:
https://www.infowars.com/posts/banned-from-youtube-americas-frontline-doctors-hold-2nd-summit-in-dc/

Or if you want to get it from the source (you need to give an email here) :
https://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com/stream/

 

[Owen]

I am just glad that there have been zero regular flu deaths in 2020 as it has been cured. Finally some good news ! :thumbsup:

:twothumbs
If the change in the "flu story" didn't make it obvious to people how much they're being lied to, nothing will. The funny part is that, last I looked, CDC didn't even edit or remove their previous charts and statements, so anyone who is interested can Google them right up in .000whatever seconds.
What's sad is that I'm just a regular guy with no special knowledge, and I don't even need to Google anything. I can rip apart any news report, on any channel, on practically any topic(racial, historical, as well as medical), just as fast as the lies, contradictions and sensationalistic emotional appeals come out of their mouths, but what I can't offer is any truth.
Yeah, I see the lies for what they are, but have no idea what's actually happening. I got my rude awakening about the veracity of anything we call "news" ~30 years ago when I was in the military, and to quote myself speaking to my father, afterwards-"we have no idea what's really going on in the world."
We still don't.