LED-holic
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Do people make counterfeit AA / AAA batteries too?
Do people make counterfeit AA / AAA batteries too?
COUNTERFEIT BATTS BLEW UP IN MY DEREELIGHT! i was a victim and this could happen to u
- Thread starter halocon
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Thank you for the advice! I do only buy brand name CR123's. I have mainly Panasonic's, Evereadys, Duracells, and Surefires. I only use the few Chinese made batteries in single cell lights. Heck, I do not even buy stuff offshore!
Mike
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Outdoors Fanatic
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
They are 100% genuine SureFire cells as long as SureFire is legally selling them. They are not stealing anything nor infringing any patent or intellectual property rights. They are made in the USA so I'm good with that.
That's just nonsense. Volkswagem makes Audi vehicles, But I wouldn't dare to say they are not genuine Audi cars, only because volks design and produce them.Yes, I do!
I mean... I thought their cells were genuine Surefire cells...
They are 100% genuine SureFire cells as long as SureFire is legally selling them. They are not stealing anything nor infringing any patent or intellectual property rights. They are made in the USA so I'm good with that.
When Batterystation started selling domestic (USA) made 123s I now buy them there. I believe they are made by Rayovac for Batterystation.com.
At the time I placed my last order with them, they didn't have Batterystation branded cells, they were substituting Rayovac until they started stocking the Batterystation brand. So I got 20 cells @ 1.25 each (CPF discount).
Batterystation's rep took a hit when their Chinese cells were giving some problems. Now that they sell domestic batteries, I'm a customer again.
I think that they have been responsive to demand, their website says that they switched to a domestic mfg'r so they could sell to the military.
At the time I placed my last order with them, they didn't have Batterystation branded cells, they were substituting Rayovac until they started stocking the Batterystation brand. So I got 20 cells @ 1.25 each (CPF discount).
Batterystation's rep took a hit when their Chinese cells were giving some problems. Now that they sell domestic batteries, I'm a customer again.
I think that they have been responsive to demand, their website says that they switched to a domestic mfg'r so they could sell to the military.
NextLight
Enlightened
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
IMO, There is nothing in this thread to suggest Surefire cells are not "genuine."
Surefire used their considerable engineering resources and bulk purchasing power to deliver cost effective CR123A cells that are most suitable to the task of reliably driving high output flashlights, for users who have lives depending on them. As many have discovered (some the hard way) that last part can apply to all of us.
Several CPF members have done extensive research on different manufacturers CR123A cell capabilities. With the available data and an engineering degree, one can sometimes pick a better cell for a single specific lighting application. But doing so is a non-trivial task.
As to Surefire owning the factory where its cells are made, that only makes sense if making batteries is (1) a core competency, (2) trade secret, and/or (3) provides a competitive advantage based on economy of scale. None of those are the case. So, Surefire owning the factory would just be a wast of capital, which could be better utilized elsewhere.
Whether Surefire cells are "different" beyond the label, or identical to some other brand we recognize: Surefire cells are recognized as a safe and sound choice for high performance lighting applications. They are available to Surefire customers thru the same distribution channels as the lights for which the batteries are intended. Today Surefire bulk battery prices are a tiny fraction of what users would commonly pay at retail at most department stores (1/7th of what Wal-Mart USA charged a decade ago) but again, price is just ONE variable.
Experience has shown that making the wrong Lithium family battery choice can quickly prove financially unsound, or worse, a family tragedy. Choose carefully.
I mean... I thought their cells were genuine Surefire cells...
IMO, There is nothing in this thread to suggest Surefire cells are not "genuine."
Surefire used their considerable engineering resources and bulk purchasing power to deliver cost effective CR123A cells that are most suitable to the task of reliably driving high output flashlights, for users who have lives depending on them. As many have discovered (some the hard way) that last part can apply to all of us.
Several CPF members have done extensive research on different manufacturers CR123A cell capabilities. With the available data and an engineering degree, one can sometimes pick a better cell for a single specific lighting application. But doing so is a non-trivial task.
As to Surefire owning the factory where its cells are made, that only makes sense if making batteries is (1) a core competency, (2) trade secret, and/or (3) provides a competitive advantage based on economy of scale. None of those are the case. So, Surefire owning the factory would just be a wast of capital, which could be better utilized elsewhere.
Whether Surefire cells are "different" beyond the label, or identical to some other brand we recognize: Surefire cells are recognized as a safe and sound choice for high performance lighting applications. They are available to Surefire customers thru the same distribution channels as the lights for which the batteries are intended. Today Surefire bulk battery prices are a tiny fraction of what users would commonly pay at retail at most department stores (1/7th of what Wal-Mart USA charged a decade ago) but again, price is just ONE variable.
Experience has shown that making the wrong Lithium family battery choice can quickly prove financially unsound, or worse, a family tragedy. Choose carefully.
Federal LG
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Your analogy is not applicable. Audi car´s inside components are different from VW car´s inside components.
An Audi car IS NOT a VW car with just an Audi body.
(How I know that ? Half of my family works at Audi)
And If I learn correct, a Surefire cell IS a Panasonic cell with the Surefire "red clothes".
I think Panasonic cells are great, so this is not a problem. I just said I thought SF cells are all made by Surefire. Inner and outer body!
And if SF sells Panasonic cells clothed as SF cells, that´s because they do believe in Panasonic cells quality! If they do believe, so I´m gonna trust them too... Like I said in a previous post, I just use primary Duracell and Surefire cells.
Chill out...
Your analogy is not applicable. Audi car´s inside components are different from VW car´s inside components.
An Audi car IS NOT a VW car with just an Audi body.
(How I know that ? Half of my family works at Audi)
And If I learn correct, a Surefire cell IS a Panasonic cell with the Surefire "red clothes".
I think Panasonic cells are great, so this is not a problem. I just said I thought SF cells are all made by Surefire. Inner and outer body!
And if SF sells Panasonic cells clothed as SF cells, that´s because they do believe in Panasonic cells quality! If they do believe, so I´m gonna trust them too... Like I said in a previous post, I just use primary Duracell and Surefire cells.
Chill out...
Federal LG
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Thanks for the tips, NextLight. I agree with that, and that´s why I choose SF and Duracell cells.
I just thought that it was SF factory that produce them, not just "clothe" them in a red suit.
Thanks for the tips, NextLight. I agree with that, and that´s why I choose SF and Duracell cells.
I just thought that it was SF factory that produce them, not just "clothe" them in a red suit.
HKJ
Flashaholic
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Who or where a cell is made, does not really define the quality.
Surefire has some specifications the cells must fullfill, this can be standard Panasonic cells or it could be better/worse quality cells, only Surefire and Panasonic would know. Surefire could also change to another supplier if Panasonic raises the price or deliver to low quality.
The game of owning a brand, but not a factory, is that your can get it from whoever deliver the required quality for the lowest price.
Who or where a cell is made, does not really define the quality.
Surefire has some specifications the cells must fullfill, this can be standard Panasonic cells or it could be better/worse quality cells, only Surefire and Panasonic would know. Surefire could also change to another supplier if Panasonic raises the price or deliver to low quality.
The game of owning a brand, but not a factory, is that your can get it from whoever deliver the required quality for the lowest price.
Dead_Nuts
Enlightened
This happened to me, also. RayoVacs are running great. I only buy big brand names (except fot Battery Station). I would also suggest voltage testing prior to usage. What I do is use carriers and make sure that no adjacent batteries are off by more than .15v. This represents 5% of a nominal 3v battery. But what I've found with new, quality brand batteries is that I'm able to keep the differences to less than .1v in almost all cases. If I get one that's way off, I just throw it away - it's not worth risking the dreaded RVwF (Rapid Vent with Flame) event; aka "blowing up!"
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
This is very true! Just because another manufacturer makes a product for a company, that does not mean it is the same. Surefire may be giving Panasonic certain specifications thay want the batteries to meet since it will have their name on it, and that quality is what the end user will expect since it has the Surefire name on it. I used to have scanning radios with the Radio Shack name on them, but they were made by Uniden. The RS radios were NOTHING like anything Uniden made with their name on it because they were made the way RS wanted them. So, in this case, even though Surefire did not make the batteries, it is still their product and they support it, not Panasonic. Just my two cents!!
Mike
This is very true! Just because another manufacturer makes a product for a company, that does not mean it is the same. Surefire may be giving Panasonic certain specifications thay want the batteries to meet since it will have their name on it, and that quality is what the end user will expect since it has the Surefire name on it. I used to have scanning radios with the Radio Shack name on them, but they were made by Uniden. The RS radios were NOTHING like anything Uniden made with their name on it because they were made the way RS wanted them. So, in this case, even though Surefire did not make the batteries, it is still their product and they support it, not Panasonic. Just my two cents!!
Mike
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Yes, there was a lot of fake energizer AA (alkaline) before, I didn't see it in recent years. I guess they found faking CR123A is more profitable Nonetheless, I haven't seen any fake NiMH cells though.
Alan
Yes, there was a lot of fake energizer AA (alkaline) before, I didn't see it in recent years. I guess they found faking CR123A is more profitable
Nonetheless, I haven't seen any fake NiMH cells though.Alan
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Due to Surefire purchase power (volume sold to military), they could request special specification from the manufacturer, it means it is not necessarily be new cloth over someone's product. Besides that, once they have their own brand, they could switch to other manufacturer should they see fit.
Alan
Due to Surefire purchase power (volume sold to military), they could request special specification from the manufacturer, it means it is not necessarily be new cloth over someone's product. Besides that, once they have their own brand, they could switch to other manufacturer should they see fit.
Alan
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Not so long ago, perhaps 2 months, i saw fake GP NiMH cells. They look horrible and the one giving away the authenticity for me were the weight of the batteries.
Generally fake AA/AAA and NiMH cells have a fraction of the real weight of the battery they are trying to imitate.
Better clones have a better clothing and very difficult to compare if not the weight giving away their identity.
Of course some of the fakes are so bad that i can easily bend the whole battery with just my fingers or at least put dents on it.
becareful with them, especially if you re going to recharge them!
Yes, there was a lot of fake energizer AA (alkaline) before, I didn't see it in recent years. I guess they found faking CR123A is more profitable
Alan
Not so long ago, perhaps 2 months, i saw fake GP NiMH cells. They look horrible and the one giving away the authenticity for me were the weight of the batteries.
Generally fake AA/AAA and NiMH cells have a fraction of the real weight of the battery they are trying to imitate.
Better clones have a better clothing and very difficult to compare if not the weight giving away their identity.
Of course some of the fakes are so bad that i can easily bend the whole battery with just my fingers or at least put dents on it.
becareful with them, especially if you re going to recharge them!
Outdoors Fanatic
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
:thumbsdow
There are tons of fake Sony NiMHs from China. Check the battery section... Some of them look very well made like the real thing, but they won't hold a charge no matter what you do.Yes, there was a lot of fake energizer AA (alkaline) before, I didn't see it in recent years. I guess they found faking CR123A is more profitable
Alan
:thumbsdow
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Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
I got some fake GP NiMH AAA 1100 mAh cells in Bangkok now almost 2 years ago.
Marked "Produced in Singapore"!
Packet, jacket, weight; all felt well.
Not very cheap either, before some serious haggling brought the price down!
Lasted only a couple of recharges before they no longer took any charge!
And very close inspection/undressing of the batteries showed that the cells inside where not similar in all of the batteries; there were two distinctly different types of cells used.
Close inspection also showed that the vents/plastic chip around the positive button of the battery were not as precisely made as the original, and were also not made of plastic but of paper/cardboard!
That was what could have given them away in the first check, if I had known what to look for!
But lesson learned, I don't buy batteries from stalls in Phantip in Bangkok any more!
I also bought a set of "Sony LR123 Li-Ion 1200mAh Rechargeable" batteries, in a two-pack together with a charger.
Not especially cheap either, bought in a small shop selling flashlights, chargers and batteries only, and inside a renowned mall in Bangkok.
These cells also have some misprintings on them, and 1200 mAh capacity RCR123's I have never seen elsewhere!
The charger was no good, only brought the voltage up to 3.87 Volts, so that one was soon replaced with a Nano charger.
These cells have functioned without any problems!
And they seem to be better at delivering high current than my RCR123 non-protected cells from Ultrafire!
And works good in a pair, always stopping within +/- 0.01 Volts of remaining voltage when down to around 3 Volts after use.
So there are good, and no-good, fakes!
But there is always a risk using fakes/no-brand cells, so I do prefer the known/reputed cells!
In my experience, I prefer Sanyo Lithiums over Surefire Lithiums, as they have had less numbers of failing cells than the Surefires I have had!
But I have not used more than maybe 30 Lithiums all in all, so I might have been lucky/unlucky!
I got some fake GP NiMH AAA 1100 mAh cells in Bangkok now almost 2 years ago.
Marked "Produced in Singapore"!
Packet, jacket, weight; all felt well.
Not very cheap either, before some serious haggling brought the price down!
Lasted only a couple of recharges before they no longer took any charge!
And very close inspection/undressing of the batteries showed that the cells inside where not similar in all of the batteries; there were two distinctly different types of cells used.
Close inspection also showed that the vents/plastic chip around the positive button of the battery were not as precisely made as the original, and were also not made of plastic but of paper/cardboard!
That was what could have given them away in the first check, if I had known what to look for!
But lesson learned, I don't buy batteries from stalls in Phantip in Bangkok any more!
I also bought a set of "Sony LR123 Li-Ion 1200mAh Rechargeable" batteries, in a two-pack together with a charger.
Not especially cheap either, bought in a small shop selling flashlights, chargers and batteries only, and inside a renowned mall in Bangkok.
These cells also have some misprintings on them, and 1200 mAh capacity RCR123's I have never seen elsewhere!
The charger was no good, only brought the voltage up to 3.87 Volts, so that one was soon replaced with a Nano charger.
These cells have functioned without any problems!
And they seem to be better at delivering high current than my RCR123 non-protected cells from Ultrafire!
And works good in a pair, always stopping within +/- 0.01 Volts of remaining voltage when down to around 3 Volts after use.
So there are good, and no-good, fakes!
But there is always a risk using fakes/no-brand cells, so I do prefer the known/reputed cells!
In my experience, I prefer Sanyo Lithiums over Surefire Lithiums, as they have had less numbers of failing cells than the Surefires I have had!
But I have not used more than maybe 30 Lithiums all in all, so I might have been lucky/unlucky!
WildChild
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Yes, about 50 000 counterfeit Duracell were seized last year in a small city where I live. We could find those in dollar stores and drug stores (I think there are still a few on the shelf). At TV, they said there was many reports of explosion with those and very poor capacity. They were packaged in some kind of shrinked plastic with a label that wasn't Duracell at all, sold at $1 for 2, instead of the usual $3 for the same quantity for genuine Duracell.
Yes, about 50 000 counterfeit Duracell were seized last year in a small city where I live. We could find those in dollar stores and drug stores (I think there are still a few on the shelf). At TV, they said there was many reports of explosion with those and very poor capacity. They were packaged in some kind of shrinked plastic with a label that wasn't Duracell at all, sold at $1 for 2, instead of the usual $3 for the same quantity for genuine Duracell.
WildChild
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Runtime test made by CPF member chevrofreak recently, see how the Panasonic, Rayovac and SureFire all act the same:
Runtime test made by CPF member chevrofreak recently, see how the Panasonic, Rayovac and SureFire all act the same:
Re: my dereelight blew up in my hands!
Interesting test. It would be great if there was a line for the new Battery Station batteries, which are also made in the US. These are *probably* made by Panasonic too.
Interesting test. It would be great if there was a line for the new Battery Station batteries, which are also made in the US. These are *probably* made by Panasonic too.
Many things can be made as "knock offs". The first ones I remember were the fake Rolex watches with the tip off being the second hand clicked instead of swinging. Than their are of course "girly boys" in Thailand....but that's a different story .
.
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DM51
Flashaholic
Several points.
1. This thread was posted in the wrong forum. It is not about a failure of a light, it is about counterfeit cells. It belongs in the Batteries section, so I will be moving it there when I have finished this post.
2. There have been a number of similar threads, but each incident deserves a good airing, if only to drive home the point (once again) that buying cheap junk cells from eBay or other dubious sources is just asking for trouble. It is to be hoped that as many people as possible will read this thread and be made aware of the dangers of using counterfeit cells. However, as sure as night follows day, in a month or two there will be another very similar thread about an almost identical incident, and the whole process will begin again.
3. Some unnecessarily crude and offensive language has crept in here, in one or two posts. Albinoni, I have edited your post #42, it being the worst example. You are warned that any further occurrence will earn you time off.
4. The topic is counterfeit cells, how to spot them, and the dangers of using them. Please continue…
1. This thread was posted in the wrong forum. It is not about a failure of a light, it is about counterfeit cells. It belongs in the Batteries section, so I will be moving it there when I have finished this post.
2. There have been a number of similar threads, but each incident deserves a good airing, if only to drive home the point (once again) that buying cheap junk cells from eBay or other dubious sources is just asking for trouble. It is to be hoped that as many people as possible will read this thread and be made aware of the dangers of using counterfeit cells. However, as sure as night follows day, in a month or two there will be another very similar thread about an almost identical incident, and the whole process will begin again.
3. Some unnecessarily crude and offensive language has crept in here, in one or two posts. Albinoni, I have edited your post #42, it being the worst example. You are warned that any further occurrence will earn you time off.
4. The topic is counterfeit cells, how to spot them, and the dangers of using them. Please continue…
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