CreeBar: 12V proto/ idea

[orb]

See http://www.lumidrives.com/Products.aspx?name=Microdriver9LEDPowerDrive
I have just used Four of these for our Garden lighting.
100-250 In & 1-8 LEDs per channel, Dimming via a Pot.
So far so good, very nice to work with.

 

[McGizmo]

Mash,

:nana:

Rob,
Cool! Thanks!

These drivers sure look similar from the outside!

 

[billybright]

Mash & Rob,
Thanks for the info :thumbsup:

also,it looks like we have 220v Xitanium drivers available here in the UK;
http://www.solargb.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=products.list&cid=4

 

[dat2zip]

Don or Wayne,
are any Xitanium drivers available for us Brits in 220v AC input
looks like all the drivers listed at the Shoppe are 110v only?

There are two models that are universal that will work on 110/220V. They are limited to three LEDs in a string. I will be adding them to the Shoppe shortly.

The two models LEDUNIA0350C12FM , LEDUNIA0700C12FM are available direct from Future if you need them now.

Advanced Transformer I would hope would upgrade the current drivers and make them all universal. If there are other drivers out there let me know and I will try to stock them.

Wayne

 

[billybright]

Thanks Wayne, i'll keep looking for them in the Shoppe window :twothumbs

 

[Mash]

Welcome all, glad to be able to contribute!
It seems LUMOTECH (holland), is the supplier of LUMIDRIVES (UK), however Lumidrives havent updated their website for long while, and the dont show the mains dimmable driver.
And also as mentioned the casing seems to be the same for some other brands too, so they might all be the same thing, labelled differently for different companies; the data sheets for sure usually are identical in spec.
And also on the other thread I mentioned the problems with Xitanium and other potentiometer dimmable drivers, are two fold:
1- Most only dim down to 5 or 10%, ie not total off, so you need and AC switch also.
2- in a house hold setting the above leads to the neccessity of running two sets of wiring back and forth, and also UI issues.
SO mains dimmable is the way to go IMHO

 

[Mash]

PS Lumidrives are easily available in the UK, give them a ring and they will help you; they are also reasonably priced

OOPS pressed Quote instead of Edit !

 

[Darell]

However in the case of the CreeBar, I don't know of a solution that would fit even though there is enough volume for the components.

Lost me here. You mean the configuration of known components won't work, but there is enough room? Seems you fit the shark/remora in for Ted Bear. :thinking: I obviously missed something here1

I also want a single clickie switch to power up as well as cycle or signal for the various levels.

You mean like we discussed before where you want one switch to actually remove power from the circuit, and then be the momentary switch we all know and love? I can understand the desire with something that is battery powered, but once you add a wall-wart, there is no need to remove the sleep power.

Messing with AC power also requires some consideration for UL and other certification standards.

This is always a concern, certainly. From what I understand (and it ain't much!) only the wart has to be UL and all that. The other end stops being AC, and is far more benign. I'm not sure where the possible liabilities start and stop!

Although I haven't confirmed it, I believe Wayne's Shark with Remora could be coupled with a wall wart and the power switch used to power up the wall wart and its cycling triggering the Remora. :shrug:

I think Wayne already answered this one - there is NO reason why this won't work. And I use a bFlex this very way. It is cheap, durable, and drop-dead simple. Plus I can use my own UI instead of relying on the mass-producers to figure it out for me. A wall wart and DC driver is (at least one of) the answer(s) here! You can power cycle the wall wart for a super-easy on/off with existing 110VAC and wall switches, and still have level control at the device when wanted/needed. Or you can just leave the thing plugged into power all the time, and use the momentary switch to perform all functions - on/off/level, etc. If you keep the light off for maybe 1 extra minute/year, you've made up for the micro load of powering the uC in sleep mode for that year. I sure don't think we ever have to worry about the sleep draw when powered from the mains.

Now the extrusion alone is about 2 pounds so I am not clear that this would be a good solution as a bike light?!?!

hell no!

 

[McGizmo]

Lost me here. You mean the configuration of known components won't work, but there is enough room? Seems you fit the shark/remora in for Ted Bear. :thinking: I obviously missed something here..

Yes to the statement in bold.

You mean like we discussed before where you want one switch to actually remove power from the circuit, and then be the momentary switch we all know and love? I can understand the desire with something that is battery powered, but once you add a wall-wart, there is no need to remove the sleep power.

I don't care about sleep or not. Let me try another tack. I have ceiling lights in all of my major rooms and they are now LED. They are turned on and off by toggle switches on the wall; same function as a clickie if I may. These lights are great but they would be even greater if I could adjust the light output level a bit. I don't want to run additional wires or have additional switches involved. If I were to replace the Xitanium driver with a driver that could be signaled via on/off of the switch then I could have variable levels of light without any hoops to jump through or additional circuits to plumb in. Obviously sleep is not relevant because if the switch is off the driver has no power to sleep on. Such a driver, if physically in conformance, could also be used in the CreeBar and the switch located either on the CreeBar or perhaps the CreeBarr is fed from a wall switch already in place. At the light itself or at a distance, the light could be cycled through a set of output levels. Same driver could work in both examples; CreeBar or similar desk or task light or overhead or other remote type of fixture.

Home lighting or work lighting is rarely used in a momentary mode. It typically is turned on and left on until it is no longer needed. A UI that could allow for variable output levels via pumping the switch on and off initially until the desired level is met would be just fine, I believe. One could program the driver to come back on at the last level or on the low level or on the high level for that matter. Such a driver would be fine on a three way switch as well and many homes have primary light fixtures wired to three way switches.

 

[Darell]

They are turned on and off by toggle switches on the wall; same function as a clickie if I may. These lights are great but they would be even greater if I could adjust the light output level a bit. I don't want to run additional wires or have additional switches involved. If I were to replace the Xitanium driver with a driver that could be signaled via on/off of the switch then I could have variable levels of light without any hoops to jump through or additional circuits to plumb in.

Ah! Thanks for the clarification. I get it now! And I also see some of the issues. Retrofits are always a *****. If things could just be wired correctly from the beginning, there are no limits! But we work with what we've got. I'm interested to look into the "power cycle" UI. Could be anywhere between drop-dead simple.... and impossible.

 

[McGizmo]

Darell,
You need to check out Wayne's Shark/Remora UI. The ones I have messed with are simply low,med & high but I understand you could further segment the output stages with further additional levels. I think it would be a mistake to go to too many. Perhaps Wayne or someone else can provide the verbage of how and when and the "timing" of access to level change. If I may put it in simpleton terms, knowing that there are various levels is the only clue I needed to be able to access them. Unlike some of the twisties with UI that I have which often end up somewhere I don't want to be (this could be by virtue of flaky contact break and make inherent in the twisty contacts and not due to the UI), the Shark/Remora has proven itself to have a simple UI that I can access and master. It is set up to come on in previous level.

Turn light on. Too bright or too dim then start cycling on - off until desired level is reached and then leave it on. I would like to point out that the typical wall toggle switch behaves like a reverse clickie so if you turn the light on and it is not where you want it, you can partially or momentarily break the curcuit with a partial movement of the toggle and pump this until you reach the desired level and then just release the toggle. The CreeBar I have that is on the makita battery has a reverse clickie switch (nice Judco switch) and it works in the same fashion a regular wall switch does. The UI is idiot proof (by my standards) on the Makita/CreeBar so I know it would be as viable on a house or table light and it requires no special consideration or additional circuit or additional switch. A bank of these drivers fed from the same switch would presumably perform in concert but that might require buffering the code or whatever the term would be to allow for variation from chip to chip. Again, I leave this to the experts but I have experienced enough to know that there are solutions available.

 

[London Lad]

............................

Home lighting or work lighting is rarely used in a momentary mode. It typically is turned on and left on until it is no longer needed. A UI that could allow for variable output levels via pumping the switch on and off initially until the desired level is met would be just fine, I believe. One could program the driver to come back on at the last level or on the low level or on the high level for that matter. Such a driver would be fine on a three way switch as well and many homes have primary light fixtures wired to three way switches.

Don, In the example you give above, when you say "pumping the switch" are you talking about the existing mains switch switching the mains or would the user have used the existing house lighting circuit to supply 12 volts dc or whatever?

 

[kenster]

LL, I believe Don means that all the standard house wiring and switches would remain. The change to DC for the driver with the multi-level UI takes place in the fixture. The standard wall switch would simply be turned on-off-on to reach the next level of light. I think I am right but you might want to wait for Don`s response. A single Remora capable of operating several Shark drivers for multi-levels of light in a large fixture needing a large number of LED`s sounds great to me. :thumbsup: But I don`t know how to do it. Hmmm..... Oh Wayne!

Ken

 

[McGizmo]

London Lad,
What Kenster said. My proposed solution has the constant current (varied by UI control), AC to DC conversion all handled by the driver that is resident in the fixture itself. The fixture is fed from existing mains and switching the AC power on and off signals the driver to step through its output levels.

 

[London Lad]

I was just thinking that looking at the size of the xitanium type drivers I guess they must do the ac / dc conversion by pulse mode rather than liner psu (a switching supply rather than a big transformer and rectifier) I am not sure but I think this type of supply draws quite a bit of current at switch on and takes a second or two for its output to drop to 0 volts at switch off.

If I am correct then this may present problems with using the switching of the AC to signal the driver.

I can think of ways round this but they are inefficient and defeat the object of running leds in the first place!

 

[Darell]

Darell,
You need to check out Wayne's Shark/Remora UI. The ones I have messed with are simply low,med & high but I understand you could further segment the output stages with further additional levels. I think it would be a mistake to go to too many. Perhaps Wayne or someone else can provide the verbage of how and when and the "timing" of access to level change.

OK, I'm up to speed now, and understand how all this works (shocking, I know). A power-cycle UI is easier to implement than I thought! And I can see how it could be just the ticket in some situations. Some of the stumbling blocks, as I see them are:

1. Brown outs and "glitches" gives you a new mode.
2. You must cycle through all available modes in the order they are offered.
3. If using a wall wart, it'll need to have very little capacitance so the power can be cycled fast enough.

If a single switch at the wall (with no additional wiring) is mandatory, then this "power cycle" UI is the solution. In situations where the fixture has relatively easy access, I'd still far prefer an additional momentary switch at the fixture for UI control (so you can access modes in a more practical manner without cycling through ones you don't want, and the UI is not affected by dirty power, etc). The main power switch would then just turn on (at last mode) and off. And 99% of the time, that's what you'll want. When you want a new mode, you change it at the fixture.

Cyclic UIs are by far the easiest for anybody to master as there is nothing to learn. Everything it does is offered up in the same order every time - no exceptions. I totally agree that they are idiot proof and most definitely have their place! At the same time, these UIs are the most frustrating for me to use! If I pick up a PAL light, for example, and I want to turn it on low, and then off, I must first turn it on high, cycle to low. When I'm done, I have to cycle through flashing, and then off. Truly, this drives me nuts and is what led me to the wide world of UI design in the first place!

In my perfect world, I'd want the fixture able to house a wall wart and the driver, with a place for the momentary switch to poke through. The fixture is then just fed mains AC power, and is switched at the wall like normal (Additionaly, the fixture can be switched locally if that is more convenient than using the wall switch as is the case in so many kitchen lights where you have to walk back out of the kitchen to turn on the light over the oven, for example!) This configuration works with 3-way wall switching as well, of course.

There is no one right answer, and I'm enjoying the discussion.

 

[Darell]

If I am correct then this may present problems with using the switching of the AC to signal the driver.

You wouldn't want to use a current-limiting DC converter to feed the drivers that we're discussing... I wouldn't think! A simple wall wart is all that would be needed. Current control is handled at the driver level, after the DC power input.

 

[McGizmo]

If anyone has strobe or SOS in their UI for house lighting, they deserve to have to cycle through it!! :nana:

I see no reason for more than low, medium high on this simple dimming package. As fast as you can read low, medium ,high, low, medium, high you have just cycled through the levels twice on the light. In actual use, it just isn't an issue as has been my experience. You turn on the light and if it isn't the level you want, you select the one you do want. A brown out or black out turns the light off and then back on presumably and probably back to what it was previously if that is what the UI was configured as. I see no additional problem beyond the brown or black out itself.

As I understand it, most of the wall warts are cheap and old and inefficient means of voltage conversion. Although they may well be suited for some of the applications and mods, I am interested in a Xitanium style package and level of technology but I want it to accept a universal range of VAC and I want it to have a three level output UI accessible via on/off cycling. I am confident such a device is possible.

If the lights were on a 12V system then there wouldn't have been a problem to start with! I have a couple banks of LED lights on 12V kept fresh by the mains. These banks have a dimmer switch which is remote and controls all of the units that are connected to its control signal. The dimmer switch is a simple pot with a circuit that Wayne designed and it gives you 0 to 100% light output. I think there is a flashlight coming out that has the same means of volume control! :nana:

 

[Meduza]

1. Brown outs and "glitches" gives you a new mode.

Not if you put a little delay in, so it must be turned off more than xxx milliseconds before it goes to the next mode...

 

[Darell]

If anyone has strobe or SOS in their UI for house lighting, they deserve to have to cycle through it!! :nana:

Agreed! Same for flashlights as far as I'm concerned.

I see no reason for more than low, medium high on this simple dimming package.

Would be pretty darn slick to have a settable "dim to sleep" feature as well. And a couple of other "toys" (that I won't bother getting into here) that I'm simply addicted to now that I have them at my disposal. But yes, three simple levels is a good fit for most situations. As you can tell, I'm coming from the, "here's what *I* want" angle, while your angle is more of the "commercializable, idiot-proof" type. Away from CPF (you know - in the "real world," your angle is WAY more valid and logical!

A brown out or black out turns the light off and then back on presumably and probably back to what it was previously if that is what the UI was configured as. I see no additional problem beyond the brown or black out itself.

The same sort of on/off blips that can destroy the computer would easily change modes. But it isn't like you'd have to call 911 if you suddenly found your lights in "medium."

As I understand it, most of the wall warts are cheap and old and inefficient means of voltage conversion.[/quote]
I just picked up some really nice, tiny, light weight switchers that are fantastic and amazingly accurate (at V out with and without load).

I am interested in a Xitanium style package and level of technology but I want it to accept a universal range of VAC and I want it to have a three level output UI accessible via on/off cycling. I am confident such a device is possible.

Absolutely possible! All we need now is a market to inspire it!

If the lights were on a 12V system then there wouldn't have been a problem to start with!

If I ever move again, I'd probably have to build a custom house. And it would absolutely have low voltage AC everywhere. So many things could be simplified and so much more efficient that it boggles the mind.