Decided to Go Unprotected

[Joe Talmadge]

Does anyone charge their phones , camera batteries or laptops this way ? ... If I was really worried about Li-Ions , I wouldn't have a laptop , camera or mobile phone ... After all , we hold our mobiles to our ears and hold our cameras to our eyes ... Our lap-tops are on our laps and therefore very close to our reproductive organs.

.

On the other hand, all those products have built-in power management, designed by an engineer or team of engineers who likely have advanced degrees in this area, and whose professional career is around power management -- these people have gone to school for years and feed their family based on their rare expertise on the topic. And even then, things go wrong, laptops occasionally do catch on fire, etc. With a loose 18650 in a flashlight, nearly all of that professional expertise is replaced by you and I. I'm also not worried about the power lines in my backyard, though in a million years I would not handle them in any way, I let the professionals do that; I'm VERY SERIOUS about safety aspects even when merely dealing with the relatively lower-power outlets in my house. Okay, not a perfect analogy, but you get the point here.

 

[Brian10962001]

I have been using unprotected 18650s brought back from the grave out of Laptop bat packs for a good long while now. Always charged with my Samsung converted phone charger, ran at various rates through many different lights. I have seen one cell that was for sure "bad" come out of these packs (all have been WAY under voltage, some as low as .8 volts). The one that was for certain bad had somehow reversed polarity! I verified it with two different multi meters. It came up to 1.4 volts then shut the charger off (LED actually turned off, something I had never seen before).

Also an interesting tale from an RC car friend of mine. He watched someone at a race get greedy with the charge rate on an NIMH cell. He said it exploded like a firecracker and stuck the base of the battery into a garage door a few yards away. He said in the entire time he's been racing he's seen plenty of crashes, but has yet to see a Li Ion burn up.

 

[march.brown]

On the other hand, all those products have built-in power management, designed by an engineer or team of engineers who likely have advanced degrees in this area, and whose professional career is around power management -- these people have gone to school for years and feed their family based on their rare expertise on the topic. And even then, things go wrong, laptops occasionally do catch on fire, etc. With a loose 18650 in a flashlight, nearly all of that professional expertise is replaced by you and I. I'm also not worried about the power lines in my backyard, though in a million years I would not handle them in any way, I let the professionals do that; I'm VERY SERIOUS about safety aspects even when merely dealing with the relatively lower-power outlets in my house. Okay, not a perfect analogy, but you get the point here.

Whichever way you look at it , all the Laptops , Mobile Phones and Cameras that use Li-Ion batteries or cells rely on a couple of chips to keep them safe ... None of these chips are 100% perfect ... It just isn't possible to guarantee this , consequently any that do fail will hit the headlines.

We , on the other hand , must rely on our own personal judgement and experience to keep ourselves and our property safe when charging Li-Ions ... I have my own safety methods as do most other regular users of Li-Ions ... I won't bore anyone with details of how I use my 6000 count Fluke , my 5.0002V reference or my infra-red digital thermometer or even the finger (temperature) test ... Any help in preventing (or lessening) the chance of a problem is worth using ... This is why I went for Panasonic protected Li-Ion cells ... The protection circuit won't prevent a problem such as an internal short-circuit on the cell , but should help with an external short or an overcharging or overdischarging problem (hopefully).

I never did have any problems with unprotected Li-Ions , but since all my torches will take a protected version then this is what I will use in future.

God willing , my methods will keep "me and mine" safe ... If I thought that there was a really significant risk with Li-Ions then I would stick with Eneloop cells ... I have , however , stopped using Li-Ions in multi-cell torches ... My Maglite 2D (Fusion 36) is now running on six Eneloop AA's instead of two 18650's ... My Wifes 2C (Fusion 36) is now on two alkaline C-cells rather than the two 18500's ... Both are actually working very well , though I haven't checked how long the batteries last for.

As a matter of interest , I worked for over 30 years with 400,000V and 275,000V systems , on protection and communication equipment ... One thing I learnt (whilst watching a colleague) is not to open-circuit the earth on the bottom of a VT on a live 400,000V circuit ... The expensive carrier-frequency test equipment was well and truly frazzled , but luckily the only other thing that was damaged was my colleagues pride.

Be Vigilant !
.

 

[Isaiah6113]

Outstanding discussion!

As a new member to CPFs I am reminded with every read of my own nascent understanding of these matters.

Thank you,

Matthew

 

[lwknight]

Outstanding discussion!

As a new member to CPFs I am reminded with every read of my own nascent understanding of these matters.

Thank you,

Matthew

You made me get the dictionary.
1 : undergoing the process of being born : beginning to exist *nascent revolutionary tendencies*

 

[Samy]

I occasionally use unprotected panasonic 3100's in my Zebralight SC600 but this light has a low voltage cutoff so it's safe to run the batteries down until the light cuts out.

I use AW protected batteries in my Klarus XT20 and Sunwayman V10A because these lights do not have a low voltage cutoff. The protection circuit on the battery cuts in regularly and i then swap them out and charge them.

As previously mentioned, i also don't want to have to babysit my batteries, when they are flat i just want to charge them just like my laptop, phone, camera etc batteries. As long as there is a protection circuit in the either the light or the batteries or both then i feel safe using them and will continue to do so, but i'm very strict on making sure that those unprotected cells only go in the SC600.

 

[THE_dAY]

First off, great thread!

I've started gaining interest in the 18650 format and have been doing much reading over the past few days.

If I were to buy:

Flashlight with low voltage cut-off
Xtar WP2 II charger
Protected 3400 battery

would I also need some type of meter to measure the voltage of the battery or should I be fine with just the above?

 

[Shadowww]

With protected battery, meter is not very required, especially considering you're also getting good charger that's known not to overcharge & flashlight with built-in protection.

 

[pobox1475]

Lithium cells will smoke then flare up like a Katherine wheel type firework, the only time they explode is if they are inside a tube that is unable to vent.[/QUOTE]

Now I am paranoid as a frequent user of ZL H30 and AW protected RCR123. Having a potential pipe bomb on my forehead is not good .

 

[THE_dAY]

With protected battery, meter is not very required, especially considering you're also getting good charger that's known not to overcharge & flashlight with built-in protection.

Thank you, that is what I was hoping!
I will not be pushing the battery hard either, this would be for a single Nichia 219 @ ~1000mA for the high level.

 

[The_Driver]

I think Shadowww's suggestion is rather shortsighted in this case, especially for a newbie (concerning li-ion batteries). You ALWAYS need to buy a meter (it doesn't need to be expensive at all, a 20-35$ will do). You have to make sure that everything is working properly!!! And you should so this regularly (meaning that you measure the batteries after charging, in the beginning do this every time and then maybe once a month)
When your flashlight explodes and you lose a finger or two you will think otherwise.....

 

[Lou Minescence]

I would recommend protected cells to protect the battery and yourself. I usually carry an AA format light running on a protected 14500. Then I discovered unprotected IMR cells and thought that would be safer. I pictured my flashlight tailcap blowing off and hitting my throat or the head of my light going into my groin with Lion batteries. The problem is my light has a .9v cut off and is output regulated. It doesn't get dim as the battery gets low. I drained my IMR cells down to 2v a couple times.
I think everyone reading this thread has multiple lights. Some of my lights have the proper low voltage cut off points and others don't. Some are regulated and others are not. I know whatever battery I use will be ok to use in any of my lights if it is a protected battery. Protected batteries are one more safeguard for human error.

 

[Shadowww]

I think Shadowww's suggestion is rather shortsighted in this case, especially for a newbie (concerning li-ion batteries). You ALWAYS need to buy a meter (it doesn't need to be expensive at all, a 20-35$ will do). You have to make sure that everything is working properly!!! And you should so this regularly (meaning that you measure the batteries after charging, in the beginning do this every time and then maybe once a month)
When your flashlight explodes and you lose a finger or two you will think otherwise.....

There have been 0 reported incidents of single-cell flashlights exploding w/ high quality cells (e.g. Panasonic) of them. He's more likely to be killed by a rock that falls out of the sky.


..just wondering, do you also check batteries of your laptop, phone, etc with a multimeter before each use?

 

[archimedes]

....just wondering, do you also check batteries of your laptop, phone, etc with a multimeter before each use?

Yes, my cellphone and laptop have (built-in) continuous voltage / current and thermal monitoring .... right now my phone battery is at 96.8°F, 3.903V, 1190mAh capacity remaining, and is discharging at -524mA. I wish my flashlights provided this much information as well, but I do what I can with a multimeter

I think it would be prudent for anyone using Li-Ion batteries in flashlights to have a voltmeter (preferably a DMM), and knowledge of how to properly monitor and maintain these cells.

 

[The_Driver]

There have been 0 reported incidents of single-cell flashlights exploding w/ high quality cells (e.g. Panasonic) of them. He's more likely to be killed by a rock that falls out of the sky.


..just wondering, do you also check batteries of your laptop, phone, etc with a multimeter before each use?

Look, I am trying to be careful here. We have different opinions on this matter.
The technology we use here was originally never meant to be used like this by normal people (without a real technical understanding of thigns) at home. Laptops have complex battery management systems which also monitor the temperature of the cells. Here many people cheap use Chinese chargers with very low quality to charge possibly dangerous batteries.
I think when there is a newbie here who doesn't know too much about these things he should be warned about the dangerous aspects and should receive the recommendation to buy a voltmeter/multimeter (doesn't have to be too expensive).

Just because there aren't any reports doesn't mean much. There is a first for everything...

 

[march.brown]

I think it would be prudent for anyone using Li-Ion batteries in flashlights to have a voltmeter (preferably a DMM), and knowledge of how to properly monitor and maintain these cells.

It is also essential that whatever the price of the meter , it should be accurate ... Initially , I used 2000 count DMM's that cost about £5 each ... I also bought a "Five Volt Reference Source" on Ebay for $20.15 (including postage) from DanaCo.net in America ... It came certified as 5.0002V at 72F ... One of my cheap meters read 5.00V exactly , but the other was about 30mV out ... I used the good one regularly till I bought a 6000 count Fluke ... The Fluke reads 5.001V , so now I use this as my main meter.

In all fairness , my £5 meter is good enough for Li-Ion voltage measurements because it is very accurate ... However I do believe that a meter does need to be checked against a reference occasionally , just to be certain that it is reading correctly ... If you are able to check your meter against a known standard , that is the ideal situation ... If you know someone with a high quality meter that is still in calibration , then you can check against that ... If your meter is reading slightly high or low , then make a note of it and adjust your future readings accordingly.

I would not like to play with loose Li-Ions without using an accurate meter ... There is no other way to check the amount of charge still left in the battery , or the chargers terminating voltage , or the battery rested voltage etc etc.

It is a bit like driving a car without a speedometer ... You can get caught out !
.

 

[roadkill1109]

I use NCR18650B unprotected cells in SC60w & SC600, used to lockout when not in use. (and other electronic switch flashlights)

Protected cells for series connection flashlight or without low voltage cut off / indication driver.

That's a good rule!

 

[bestsystem]

I have customised a dummy battery coupler for my canon DSLR - 2 unprotected sanyo 2600 mah 18650 in series.

the precautions i use are
1. Buy them from the same batch - hopefully better matched characteristic
2. Charge with xtar WP2 - always stops at 4.17 v
3. Always use (and store) 2 cells in the same pair together - the wearing should be equal to both cells, resembles a factory packed cell.
4. Install a 2 amp fuse - a good old day overcurrent protection device
5. the camera will turn off when voltage gets lower than ~6.5V, should be able to prevent over discharge, assuming both cells hv same state of charge / health

:kiss: