do law enforcement agencies / US military ever use neutral white flashlights?.
- Thread starter neutralwhite
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Lol
More true than desired for sure.
But - how many times does a soldier for example need to resolve fine shades of yellow and orange?
Greens are typically the top priority.
; D
In the REAL world they'll buy the product that will give the best bribe, be it in money or favours or presents..
Or.. just the one sold by friends or relatives!!
That's how it works, in the REAL world.
RI Chevy
Flashlight Enthusiast
You guys are very negative.
My department used to purchase what we officers used to recommend and want. We needed to sell it to the Chief. It would then go out to competitive bid process, and the the PO was cut to the low bidder for the product that we recommended.
It is not all doom and gloom on the municipal side. Come on guys.
My department used to purchase what we officers used to recommend and want. We needed to sell it to the Chief. It would then go out to competitive bid process, and the the PO was cut to the low bidder for the product that we recommended.
It is not all doom and gloom on the municipal side. Come on guys.
Yes, Green is the top priority! Many sources of green: Yes, Discounts, Kickbacks, Friends & Relatives but the worst is the Purchaser afraid to try anything different in fear of losing their job or no bonus.
Yes, If your lucky, there are exceptions. The larger the organization the greater the chance of having a out of touch purchase.
leon2245
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Messages
- 2,335
I wonder if before critical missions, special forces teams get together & choose their lights based on which ones make a medium rare steak look the tastiest at night, or secure a dark walk in closet to analyze beam artifacts and too-bright moonlight modes lol!
The REAL question is when commando's dropped underwear from part of their equipment....
So what do you like in a reasonably high output emitter. Please be as specific as you can. LED? CCT? Bin? CRI?
TechnoWeenie
Newly Enlightened
There is a HUGE difference between issued gear (gov't provided) and PERSONAL gear. Every unit (and every PD) is different.
Some agencies don't allow personal gear at all, while some agencies REQUIRE their personnel to purchase their own equipment.
As such, it will all vary. Anyone who says 'All of XYZ is using ABC' is lying to you.
To think that there is such organization, to go so far as selecting color temperature, you're sadly mistaken.
:tired:
Some agencies don't allow personal gear at all, while some agencies REQUIRE their personnel to purchase their own equipment.
As such, it will all vary. Anyone who says 'All of XYZ is using ABC' is lying to you.
To think that there is such organization, to go so far as selecting color temperature, you're sadly mistaken.
:tired:
dc38
Flashlight Enthusiast
They pick from what they can afford/best fits the tactical role. Sadly, most of those options happen to be cool white only.
RI Chevy
Flashlight Enthusiast
You could change the tint of the issued light, and they would never figure it out anyway!
Some very good points.
The point that the CRI is relative to the ºK was especially relevant, as was the yellow looks yellow on a white wall.
I would like to point out that the eye does do its own white balance, and, if all you do is shine your light onto a white wall, you WILL probably see it as white..BECAUSE you know its supposed to be white, and your mind filters out the yellow.
I have found that if I have some ordinary white paper for example, and I take two sheets of it, and tack them to a wall, and then take a picture of what the beams on those two sheets of paper look like, while having an observer report their impression with a low ºK vs higher ºK light:
1) They almost always say that the yellower light illuminated paper is white, if there's no side by side comparison.
2) They almost always say the exact same pic of that paper is yellower if they are shown the pic next to the pic of the whiter light.
3) They almost always say that the yellower beam's paper is yellower if side by side with the whiter beam's paper.
This means that you compensate for the color of the beam itself, and the mind's eye removes the beam color to enable interpretation of the target's color.
This is most easily seen if shining onto a yellower target with a yellower beam for example.
There are also combination effects as well; A yellower beam on a bluer target can look greener than it is for example.
IE: You are adding yellow to everything you see.
This can be OK for some things, and less OK for others.
The other thing to remember, (in addition to that no department to my knowledge has ever expressed any interest in tint, at all, ever) is that for any given flashlight, it will produce fewer lumens if the beam is warmer.
This means its NOT just a warmer/cooler issue, its a LIGHT issue.
If a light produces fewer lumens, it ALSO produces proportionally fewer lux on any given target.
As the PRIMARY responsibility of a flashlight is to provide adequate lux on targets, using a warmer beam tint is in conflict with that.
Again, humans suck at perceiving that difference, so the two beams may LOOK as bright to the user, albeit they WILL see less with the warmer beam, as, it will be providing fewer lux.
The DEGREE of loss in lux is proportional to the loss in lumens.
So if the neutral version produces 10% less in lumens than a cooler bin, then, the light's lux is reduced by ~ 10%....at every part of the beam.
So, if you needed 5 lux on a target 200 meters away to be able to resolve it from its background, that would be a throw of ~ 200,000 cd (200 k cd)
If you reduce the output by 10%, then you are going to chop that range to ~ 190 meters, and people you wanted to spot could be in a ~ 10 meter deep band of area that was too dim to resolve them...and they might kill you because you didn't know they were there, or, you remain pinned down because you can't TELL if its safe to make a run for it, etc.
Now, you can argue that about every option of light and keep escalating how many lumens/lux is "enough", and just say, well, just get one that's brighter to start with, and then reduce the output to what the whiter beam would have given you, but in neutral, and so forth.
The problems, as always, are the ROI. Is it worth it to carry the larger light, given the other sacrifices needed to do that, and, given that the warmer lights are actually not as good at allowing you to SEE some scenarios, including camouflage patterns?
Typically, no. IF the warmer beams could reach well enough and were BETTER for seeing what might need to be seen, sure, then it might be worth the ROI factors to get a warmer beam..The math though doesn't say that, it says to get the cooler beam.
As no one involved in those purchases typically has tint on their radar though, its a moot point...as they would not even know if you swapped LEDs later, used a yellow filter, etc. It a complete non-issue.
The average soldier, especially if in for a long time, still thinks in terms of "100 lumens of retina searing light", as a top spec. THOSE beams are pretty green in tint btw.
The point that the CRI is relative to the ºK was especially relevant, as was the yellow looks yellow on a white wall.
I would like to point out that the eye does do its own white balance, and, if all you do is shine your light onto a white wall, you WILL probably see it as white..BECAUSE you know its supposed to be white, and your mind filters out the yellow.
I have found that if I have some ordinary white paper for example, and I take two sheets of it, and tack them to a wall, and then take a picture of what the beams on those two sheets of paper look like, while having an observer report their impression with a low ºK vs higher ºK light:
1) They almost always say that the yellower light illuminated paper is white, if there's no side by side comparison.
2) They almost always say the exact same pic of that paper is yellower if they are shown the pic next to the pic of the whiter light.
3) They almost always say that the yellower beam's paper is yellower if side by side with the whiter beam's paper.
This means that you compensate for the color of the beam itself, and the mind's eye removes the beam color to enable interpretation of the target's color.
This is most easily seen if shining onto a yellower target with a yellower beam for example.
There are also combination effects as well; A yellower beam on a bluer target can look greener than it is for example.
IE: You are adding yellow to everything you see.
This can be OK for some things, and less OK for others.
The other thing to remember, (in addition to that no department to my knowledge has ever expressed any interest in tint, at all, ever) is that for any given flashlight, it will produce fewer lumens if the beam is warmer.
This means its NOT just a warmer/cooler issue, its a LIGHT issue.
If a light produces fewer lumens, it ALSO produces proportionally fewer lux on any given target.
As the PRIMARY responsibility of a flashlight is to provide adequate lux on targets, using a warmer beam tint is in conflict with that.
Again, humans suck at perceiving that difference, so the two beams may LOOK as bright to the user, albeit they WILL see less with the warmer beam, as, it will be providing fewer lux.
The DEGREE of loss in lux is proportional to the loss in lumens.
So if the neutral version produces 10% less in lumens than a cooler bin, then, the light's lux is reduced by ~ 10%....at every part of the beam.
So, if you needed 5 lux on a target 200 meters away to be able to resolve it from its background, that would be a throw of ~ 200,000 cd (200 k cd)
If you reduce the output by 10%, then you are going to chop that range to ~ 190 meters, and people you wanted to spot could be in a ~ 10 meter deep band of area that was too dim to resolve them...and they might kill you because you didn't know they were there, or, you remain pinned down because you can't TELL if its safe to make a run for it, etc.
Now, you can argue that about every option of light and keep escalating how many lumens/lux is "enough", and just say, well, just get one that's brighter to start with, and then reduce the output to what the whiter beam would have given you, but in neutral, and so forth.
The problems, as always, are the ROI. Is it worth it to carry the larger light, given the other sacrifices needed to do that, and, given that the warmer lights are actually not as good at allowing you to SEE some scenarios, including camouflage patterns?
Typically, no. IF the warmer beams could reach well enough and were BETTER for seeing what might need to be seen, sure, then it might be worth the ROI factors to get a warmer beam..The math though doesn't say that, it says to get the cooler beam.
As no one involved in those purchases typically has tint on their radar though, its a moot point...as they would not even know if you swapped LEDs later, used a yellow filter, etc. It a complete non-issue.
The average soldier, especially if in for a long time, still thinks in terms of "100 lumens of retina searing light", as a top spec. THOSE beams are pretty green in tint btw.
The average soldier, especially if in for a long time, still thinks in terms of "100 lumens of retina searing light", as a top spec. THOSE beams are pretty green in tint btw.
The average Soldier is still carrying an incandescent mini-Maglite, if anything. </frustrated rant>
