Eneloops: what charger do I need? (info and discussion thead)

[KeepingItLight]

Re: Eneloops: what charger do I need?

As a newbie to Eneloops, I am trying to learn what I can about their care and charging. This thread is a great resource.

Initially, I thought I would use my Nitecore Digicharger D4 to charge Eneloops. It has the capability. After watching the AskMrWizard YouTube videos on NiMH batteries, however, I changed my mind. Those convinced me that I wanted a charger/analyzer.

Brief aside: The AskMrWizard vids are a great primer on NiMH. See my mini-review and links here. Part 4 presents a worthwhile system for labeling and tracking batteries as they age. I think even experienced flashaholics might enjoy that part.
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At that point in my research, I learned about the Maha MH-C9000 WizardOne Charger-Analyzer. It's a design that is a little bit older than some others, but it is still well-regarded. The testimonials in this thread bear witness to that. But then, I began seeing references to the way it terminates charging of NiMH batteries. According to the review by HKJ (and also other sources), the C9000 indicates that charging is complete before it actually is. In order to get a full charge, you have to leave your batteries in the charger for another hour or two while they trickle charge to full capacity. Very odd. If you leave them on too long, then I suppose you are subject to the same problems given by cheap chargers that continue trickle charging after an Eneloop has been fully charged. Some experts, therefore, recommend that the C9000 not be used for regular charging. Instead, it should be used for discharge, break-in, cycling, and capacity testing. These are functions where it shines.

Next, I checked out the La Crosse analyzers. One of them is featured in the AskMrWizard videos. They seem fine, but when I saw the HKJ review of the much lower-priced Opus BT-C700 NiMH Charger, my focus shifted to Opus.

HKJ gives the C700 a generally positive review. It cannot, however, charge Li-ion. At first, I thought that might be a problem, but later changed my mind. In reading HKJ's reviews of the Opus models that can charge both NiMH and Li-ion, I began to sense that—for purposes of charging NiMH—the NiMH-dedicated hardware and algorithms used in the C700 are just as good, and perhaps a bit better, than those that Opus uses in its hybrid models. As I write today, I cannot remember the details, but I definitely sensed a small difference. Having separate bays for AA and AAA batteries, as the C700 does, also makes things easier.

Anyway, this newbie ordered the Opus BT-C700.

I hope that by sharing my experience, I can help others. I welcome any corrections and advice that readers can offer. I am planning to use the Opus as my primary charger for all my Eneloops.

 

[MidnightDistortions]

Re: Eneloops: what charger do I need?

The C9000's trickle charge is low enough that won't harm Eneloops so you could leave them in for a few hours or a few days after charging is complete. I prefer using the C9000 over the BQ-CC17 (Panasonic Eneloop charger) and the BC1000. You can default at 1A without any problems and leave the cells in overnight without worrying about any overcharge. I wouldn't leave them on for weeks on end but a day or two won't hurt the cells.

 

[Kouryu]

Re: Eneloops: what charger do I need?

some of the official Eneloop chargers also do a "maintenance charge" for a couple of hours after charging has finished... if Panasonic/Sanyo designed this into their chargers, I guess there's not too much harm with that

 

[KeepingItLight]

Re: Eneloops: what charger do I need?

some of the official Eneloop chargers also do a "maintenance charge" for a couple of hours after charging has finished... if Panasonic/Sanyo designed this into their chargers, I guess there's not too much harm with that

Here is what HKJ wrote about the Maha C9000: "The charger uses about 2 hours to charge the battery, then it terminates on voltage and uses another two hours to top the battery, before it switches to a trickle charge. The charger will report done after the first two hours."

If you take your batteries out when the C9000 reports "done," they will not be fully charged. To get a full charge, you have to wait another couple of hours. Furthermore, the C9000 does not give a signal telling you when charging is actually finished. It is good to hear from you and MidnightDistortions that batteries will not be damaged if they are left charging too long, but it would be convenient to have a signal when they reach full charge.

I don't know how the Panasonic/Sanyo designs work. Do they also prematurely signal that charging is complete?

 

[MidnightDistortions]

Re: Eneloops: what charger do I need?

It actually would be nice if the C9000 provided how much mAh was accumulated during top off/trickle charged. IIRC the trickle charge is something like 10mA. You want to avoid letting the BC1000 trickle charge especially if you choose a higher current rate, the 200mA charge rate can be too low for AA cells though.

 

[Kouryu]

Re: Eneloops: what charger do I need?

Here is what HKJ wrote about the Maha C9000: "The charger uses about 2 hours to charge the battery, then it terminates on voltage and uses another two hours to top the battery, before it switches to a trickle charge. The charger will report done after the first two hours."

If you take your batteries out when the C9000 reports "done," they will not be fully charged. To get a full charge, you have to wait another couple of hours. Furthermore, the C9000 does not give a signal telling you when charging is actually finished. It is good to hear from you and MidnightDistortions that batteries will not be damaged if they are left charging too long, but it would be convenient to have a signal when they reach full charge.

I don't know how the Panasonic/Sanyo designs work. Do they also prematurely signal that charging is complete?

If you look through some of HKJ's reviews, you'll see the official Eneloop chargers typically terminate with -dV or voltage peak, then the charge drops off into a maintenance charge afterwards... these are with the better chargers, not the cheap timer based chargers that charges in pairs

 

[recDNA]

Total noob....is there a decent fast charger that comes in a package deal with eneloop pros?

 

[Kouryu]

None in US/Canada, but can be imported easily via Amazon or Ebay...
BQ-CC16 with 4 eneloop pros... from europe or asia
BQ-CC21 with 4 eneloop pros... from japan

any other "package deal" is unofficial, but may come with something substantially better, such as the C9000 charger

 

[KeepingItLight]

Re: Eneloops: what charger do I need?

If you look through some of HKJ's reviews, you'll see the official Eneloop chargers typically terminate with -dV or voltage peak, then the charge drops off into a maintenance charge afterwards... these are with the better chargers, not the cheap timer based chargers that charges in pairs

The Maha C9000 does that also. HKJ reports that NiMH charging takes 4 hours or so. When charging is complete, the C9000 slips into a gentle maintenance charging mode. The maintenance charge begins at about the 4-hour mark, when charging is complete.

But that is not what I have been commenting on.

My concern is that the C9000 reports "done" at about the 2-hour mark, when charging still has another 2 hours to go. If you take your batteries off the charger at the 2-hour mark—when the charger says they are done—and then measure them with a volt meter, you will see that they are not fully charged.

HKJ describes this in his review. I quoted the relevant section in my message above. Here is a YouTube review that reports the same:





The reviewer's comments on the C9000's incomplete charging occur at the 17:48 mark. This link will take you directly to them. Evidently, the reviewer never figured out that "done" does not mean "done," and that he is supposed to leave his batteries charging for another 2 hours or so.

HKJ recently responded to a question asking which chargers he recommends for Eneloop Pro batteries. For charging, he likes the official Eneloop chargers that have been discussed in this thread. In particular, he mentioned the Panasonic CC16 & CC17 chargers.

HKJ also gave a few recommendations for charger/analyzers. It is telling that the Maha C9000 was not among the ones he recommended. The Opus BT-C700 that I just ordered was.

Note that all we are talking about is charging. The other functions of the Maha C9000—break-in, discharge, cycling, and capacity testing—are very good.

 

[KeepingItLight]

Total noob....is there a decent fast charger that comes in a package deal with eneloop pros?

There is a place for a simple chargers, and the Panasonic models that are discussed in this thread—and which are also recommended by HKJ—are great for that purpose. HKJ's recommendations came in response to a direct question about Eneloop Pro batteries. He likes the Panasonic CC16 & CC17 chargers.

As your NiMH batteries age, however, you will need an analyzer. If they begin to develop increased internal resistance, for instance, the cycle function of an analyzer will allow you to completely charge and discharge your batteries a few times in a row. That will often "reset" them, clearing away much of the internal resistance. Capacity testing is another useful function. It will allow you to determine when a battery's life is effectively over. Another application is for flashlights that use more than one battery. Capacity testing allows you to measure—and match—the capacities of batteries that are used together. These are only a few of the features that you get with an analyzer.

I learned a lot about NiMH care and charging basics by watching the AskMrWizard videos on YouTube. I give a mini-review and YouTube links here.

 

[HKJ]

He likes the Panasonic CC16 & CC17 chargers.

Yes, but I do not like all Panasonic chargers, the one I am testing at the current time do not look good.

 

[Kouryu]

Agreed, even though they maybe the "official" charger, doesn't mean it's good... there's quite a few crap Sanyo and Panasonic chargers out there... there's only several that are really good considering their functional simplicity

 

[MidnightDistortions]

There is a place for a simple chargers, and the Panasonic models that are discussed in this thread—and which are also recommended by HKJ—are great for that purpose. HKJ's recommendations came in response to a direct question about Eneloop Pro batteries. He likes the Panasonic CC16 & CC17 chargers.

As your NiMH batteries age, however, you will need an analyzer. If they begin to develop increased internal resistance, for instance, the cycle function of an analyzer will allow you to completely charge and discharge your batteries a few times in a row. That will often "reset" them, clearing away much of the internal resistance. Capacity testing is another useful function. It will allow you to determine when a battery's life is effectively over. Another application is for flashlights that use more than one battery. Capacity testing allows you to measure—and match—the capacities of batteries that are used together. These are only a few of the features that you get with an analyzer.

I learned a lot about NiMH care and charging basics by watching the AskMrWizard videos on YouTube. I give a mini-review and YouTube links here.

Usually High IR cells are considered dead. While you might be able to recover some cells that have increased High IR you won't be able to recover some cells unless you either manually discharge/charge the cells or use a charger like a La Crosse model that supports the refresh function that doesn't check for IR. However if the charger finishes it and the C9000 still reports high IR those cells affected are most likely no good. SilverFox also mentions that any cell under 80% is considered crap, or junk. If you refreshed a cell and it's still under 80% and the C9000 reports it as high, usually nothing can be done to recover that cell. If you want to check it yourself most of the time a discharge on the C9000 will show you how the battery is performing under a discharge. The La Crosse charger can be good but for some reason the C9000 discharge rates (even low ones) can be hard on the cells and bad cells will usually have the discharge end quickly.

 

[Grijon]

Regarding the Maha C9000's "incomplete" charging, it's my understanding that it does what it does intentionally in order to be gentle on the cells - I really like that.

Here's what I posted in another thread for any concerns over 'undercharging':

What I do with mine is write down what time I started the charge. When the battery is shown as DONE the amount of time it took to charge is included as part of the information displayed; since I know when I started the charge and I know how long it was charging, I simply add 2 hours and take the batteries off more than 2 hours after being shown as done.

For example: Let's say I put my Durcell Ion Core cells in to charge at 2:30pm. At 5 pm I check and they show as done, so I wait for the Maha to display charge time. If the Maha shows 144 minutes then I know that the charger said DONE at 4:45pm and I can take the batteries out two hours after that (so that the two-hour top-off is finished) - so I'll come back after 6:45pm.

It requires me to write down when I started and then to do some math, but I'm OK with that. I hope this helps with any confusion.

If someone is looking for a simple charger, then the C9000's not so hot. I wanted an all-in-one NiMH system, and my pair of Mahas have been great!

 

[Flashy808]

How does the Xtar VC4 perform charging Eneloops (both standard and pro/XX)?
Has anybody tried?
Thanks for helping a noob out!

 

[KeepingItLight]

Usually High IR cells are considered dead.

Thanks, MidnightDistortions. I am still learning.

Another mistake I made was in purchasing 20 Eneloop Pros all in one swoop. I was planning to replace all the alkaleaks in my house. I chose the Pros thinking that 500 cycles was good enough for me, so long as I got longer runtimes.

After laying out about $90, I read here that—long runtimes notwithstanding—Eneloop Pros are a poor choice in low-draw devices such as clocks, TV remotes, etc. Runtimes are so long in those devices that self-discharge begins to be the limiting factor. Meanwhile, a poster advised me that IR could build up in batteries used for those applications, and that, in most cases, it could be cleared up by refreshing the batteries.

Regarding the Maha C9000's "incomplete" charging, it's my understanding that it does what it does intentionally in order to be gentle on the cells - I really like that.

No problem with that. My concern, and the only thing negative thing I have written about the C9000, is that the word "Done" is displayed at the wrong time. In fact, it appears when charging is only partially completed. And when charging is actually done, no indication is given. I think we both agree that is not ideal.

Why not have the same "gentleness," but with accurate messages? Maha could use something like "Done 1" and "Done 2" if they wanted to report at the midway changeover. "Done 2" would be the message when battery charging is complete.

Here's what I posted in another thread for any concerns over 'undercharging': ...

The method you quoted sounds like it would be an effective workaround for this problem.

 

[kreisl]

My concern is only that the word "Done" is displayed at the wrong time. In fact, it appears when charging is only partially completed. And when charging is actually done, no indication is given.

this could be fixed with a simple change in the firmware code.
it is a pity that the MH-C9000 firmware cannot be updated thru WiFi, USB cable, Ethernet cable, or Bluetooth.

below the 60$-mark only hobby chargers allow firmware updates

 

[Ferdinando]

below the 100$-mark only hobby chargers allow firmware updates

SKYRC NC-2500 is firmware upgradable via Bluetooth with
smartphone app

 

[Grijon]

Another mistake I made was in purchasing 20 Eneloop Pros all in one swoop. I was planning to replace all the alkaleaks in my house. I chose the Pros thinking that 500 cycles was good enough for me, so long as I got longer runtimes.

After laying out about $90, I read here that—long runtimes notwithstanding—Eneloop Pros are a poor choice in low-draw devices such as clocks, TV remotes, etc. Runtimes are so long in those devices that self-discharge begins to be the limiting factor.

It wouldn't be cost effective, but you could buy lights for the Pros and regular Eneloops for your low-drain devices...:devil:

No problem with that. My concern, and the only thing negative thing I have written about the C9000, is that the word "Done" is displayed at the wrong time. In fact, it appears when charging is only partially completed. And when charging is actually done, no indication is given. I think we both agree that is not ideal.

Agreed, though I would argue that 'partially completed' is a little misleading based on my understanding that they show DONE at around 90%; "not ideal" is an excellent way to put it.

Why not have the same "gentleness," but with accurate messages? Maha could use something like "Done 1" and "Done 2" if they wanted to report at the midway changeover. "Done 2" would be the message when battery charging is complete.

+1; I would love that!

 

[KeepingItLight]

Another mistake I made was in purchasing 20 Eneloop Pros all in one swoop.

It wouldn't be cost effective, but you could buy lights for the Pros and regular Eneloops for your low-drain devices...:devil:

Oh, yeah!

You are not the only gremlin who has been whispering that into my ears.