Experiments in LED encapsulation

saabluster

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Great performance with the new emitter!
You'd be over the moon with that ,i bet:)

A bit of black nailpolish on the inside of the
ring to get rid of the Cree rings?
Yeah I'm pretty happy with the performance. I plan to use a flat black paint made for barbecues since it will do the best at reducing reflections and be able to take high heat. Anything black that close to the LED die is going to heat up real hot.
 

Th232

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Got a small question Saab, with the optic you used, was it just one that you had lying around, or was it deliberately selected?
 

ma_sha1

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Great experiment, Saabluster.

I have done some experiment on SST-90 lately, intended to make a SST-90 thrower. I've knocked off 2-3 SST-90 dooms & noticed that
there's no soft silicon residue under the lens as seen in XRE. The SST-90 has a layer of optical something over the die, not in touch with the doom. Therefore, there's no change of die-air boundary when removing the doom here & thus no 30% light loss as seen in Cre XRE de-doom.

What this tells me is that the doom on SST-90 is merely a pre-collinmator sending more lights forward, but it increased the apparent died size 2-3x
at the same time. I thought that the doom may be reducing the throw on SST-90 because with reflector because.

1. More light is sent forward & escape the reflector. (Good for aspehrical but bad for reflector)
2. Increased apparent die size reduce light intensity & thus reduce throw.
Not good for either reflector or aspherical.

It's still a lot of light even with the doom, I have some beam shots against Mag85 here (SSR-90 with Doom):
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=238232
But without the doom, it became a diffrent animal!

I did the De-doom SST-90 mod & was shocked how strong the throw become, it's got pretty good beam with mag stock smooth reflector, with 1/2 size hot spot now but 2x as bright! The spill is reduced vs. doomed one.

Unfortunately, I poofed the SST-90 before I has a chance to take photos of my de-doom build. However, I felt the the SST-90 de-doom may not help aspeherical as much as it's helping the reflector.

No beam shots but I may have a de-doom vs. stock SST-90 led photo I can post later.
 

Pummy

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This is real geek led performance increases at work. Well done, am looking forward to how you get on and if the manufacturers take this on board.
 

jsholli

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Does anyone have suggestions for 'cheap' dome fabrication? I only have one LED missing its dome, and I don't have plans to knock anymore off ;)
 

bshanahan14rulz

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I have achieved very similar results with my testing as well. I used a domeless ez1000 XR. Only used norland, since funds do not allow purchase of a more robust substance.

The control XR in a smo P60 reflector produced a very nice, round, defined hotspot with minimal rings (still present, but I've seen worse).

The modded XR, focused as well as I could focus it, in the same XR-designed reflector, focused down much smaller, but the beam was butt-ugly! (where's that puking emoticon? thought we had one...)

Hot spot was smaller and brighter for sure, but wasn't pretty. ring-like artifacts around the hotspot, and hotspot itself wasn't round and even like the control.

I blame my poor attempt at encapsulation, but it's a proof of concept (that really didn't need proving). Yes, making the apparent die size smaller can result in more throw.

Edit:

After reviewing the beamshots, I wonder if those rings are from the increased internal reflections? Mine had nowhere to reflect to like that, since the corners of the die were "sticking out" of the NOA (although still coated (I hope)).

For most aspherics, this would probably result in a tighter spot at the cost of reduced total output (still balances out, since the same light in a smaller area appears proportionally brighter), but for the DEFT, I know SAABlast wouldn't do testing on something like this if he didn't already know how to get around that. I'm interested to see how the domeless performs with various pre-focusing optics. SAAB, you should hold a contest, winner gets to play in your lab for a day!
 
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saabluster

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Does anyone have suggestions for 'cheap' dome fabrication? I only have one LED missing its dome, and I don't have plans to knock anymore off ;)
Are you trying to just put the original dome back on?

I have achieved very similar results with my testing as well.
Congrats! Did you do tests with a light meter?


(where's that puking emoticon? thought we had one...)
:barf:


After reviewing the beamshots, I wonder if those rings are from the increased internal reflections? Mine had nowhere to reflect to like that, since the corners of the die were "sticking out" of the NOA (although still coated (I hope)).
It sounds like you did a conformal coating no? Did you remove the metal ring? The rings you see in the beam are almost certainly from the metal ring. Since it seems what you did is put a thin coat over the die you should have no need of the metal ring. Just get a pocket knife and wedge it under the side of the ring and prise it up. I wonder if the NOA is actually helping anything though. If you scrape off the silicone gel just right you can leave the phosphor impregnated silicone with a perfectly smooth surface that should be good enough on its own.

For most aspherics, this would probably result in a tighter spot at the cost of reduced total output (still balances out, since the same light in a smaller area appears proportionally brighter), but for the DEFT, I know SAABlast wouldn't do testing on something like this if he didn't already know how to get around that. I'm interested to see how the domeless performs with various pre-focusing optics. SAAB, you should hold a contest, winner gets to play in your lab for a day!

Remember that my LED is not domeless. I just changed the dome profile. You mean you want to work for me?*





*for free
 

jsholli

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Are you trying to just put the original dome back on?

Originally, yes; I could never really get a clear beam out of it after the initial seperation though.

On par, I dropped the dome when removing the star and it isn't giving its hiding place up easily. So, now the dome is out of the picture...at least the replacement went in nicely.

Mike, you want another domeless R2? ;)
 

clint357

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Do you think there is a chance that you could get a usefull beam from just an LED with the modded encapsulant? That would be awesome to be able to just stick a new dome on an LED and put it behind a flat window for a medium beam and then have the option to throw an aspheric in front of it for a laser.
 

bshanahan14rulz

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Congrats! Did you do tests with a light meter?
Yeah, I actually have two light meters that were given to me for free :broke: They only give qualitative measurements, and I'm starting to believe that they are lying to me... Where can one purchase replacement eyeballs?

It sounds like you did a conformal coating no? Did you remove the metal ring?
Yeah, the dome popped off, so I decided to just remove everything I could without disturbing the wires and diodes. Much easier to clean with no ring.


I wonder if the NOA is actually helping anything though. If you scrape off the silicone gel just right you can leave the phosphor impregnated silicone with a perfectly smooth surface that should be good enough on its own.
I was just lucky. I pulled the gel off of the die in one big chunk and it peeled very cleanly off of most of the die. I then ripped the gel before I got to the corners where the bond wires attach, so basically there is only gel under the bondwires in those corners. Understand I am working on a very tight budget and the tool I was using for all of this was a pair of angle wiresnips and a splintered toothpick.

You mean you want to work for me?
(for free)

I would if I lived near enough! :D Just think, so many optics, lenses, toys to play with! I just need Ramen, soda, and coffee :thumbsup:
 

saabluster

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Yeah, I actually have two light meters that were given to me for free :broke: They only give qualitative measurements, and I'm starting to believe that they are lying to me... Where can one purchase replacement eyeballs?
I assume your meter says you are losing light but your eyes say you are not? I can be hard but don't mistake increased intensity for increased output.



I was just lucky. I pulled the gel off of the die in one big chunk and it peeled very cleanly off of most of the die. I then ripped the gel before I got to the corners where the bond wires attach, so basically there is only gel under the bondwires in those corners. Understand I am working on a very tight budget and the tool I was using for all of this was a pair of angle wiresnips and a splintered toothpick.
Don't worry I understand.;)

I just need Ramen, soda, and coffee :thumbsup:
I've got plenty of all the above.:poke::D
 

bshanahan14rulz

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I was trying to say that the only light meters I can afford are already installed in my head. Generally, I use the spill as an approximation of brightness. Unfortunately, I have misplaced my modded LED (read: cat put it somewhere). Normally, I like to put adverbs in front of my sentences.

Probably around Wednesday things will slow down enough for me to get some me time (LED time). I remember for sure that the spot was tighter and brighter, but for some reason, I thought I remembered seeing the flood brighter too, which doesn't make sense to my little brain. Could be a result of differing drivers, though. Still saving up for some bulk amc boards so that I can know what's going to my LEDs :D

On the ramen subject, when I'm feeling fancy, I'll get those Nissin Chow Mein. Beef teriyaki flavor is the best, imo, for these Chows :thumbsup:
 

saabluster

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I was trying to say that the only light meters I can afford are already installed in my head.
:crackup:I totally missed that one.

Generally, I use the spill as an approximation of brightness.
When you do something as drastic to the LED as what we are talking about the spacial distribution changes so much that you "can" have a smaller more intense spot and more light in the spill(depending on where measured) and yet be producing less light. I'm sorry to say but our eyes are not up to the task of measuring changes in output with any degree of granularity. Well its not that our eyes aren't sensitive enough but we cannot "lock" them to a setting such as can be done with a camera.
 

JohnF

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I was warned by nailbender how fragile the dome on my P60 SST-90 drop in was. I dropped it in the garage, and in my haste to blow off the dirt I used a large compressor - and promptly blew the dome off.

I hadn't read this thread, and was ready to write it off as an $80 mistake. I had loved the huge even hot spot with almost no transition to spill. For the heck of it, I unscrewed the reflector and gently cleaned the bits of silicone (remnants of the dome adhesive, I assume) off the emitter. Put it back together, and looking straight down at the reflector was a little surprised to see nothing but yellow emitter, edge to edge all the way to the center.

I have a spare bandsaw blade (circular, 24" diameter) hanging from a nail on the garage wall, this is what I use to compare flashligt hotspot size standing at a concrete expansion line 10' from the wall.

Domeless, the SST-90 hotspot was less than 1/2 the size of the hotspot before the dome came off. And it seemed bright! Noticed a couple rings toward the very outside of the beam, but not bad at all.

Next, my informal throw test - there is a tall palm tree 210' from my back patio, and I use it to compare throw of my lights always compared to a 3D Maglite w/Malkoff XPG drop in, 1.1a at the tail.

Since my SST-90 drop in was only a week old, and I had just done my throw comparison the night before the unintentional dome removal, I had a good memory of how it compared to the 3D Malkoff. I am able to see and count all 18 palm fronds of various sizes and at different angles with the Malkoff. With the new (domed) SST-90 P60 drop in, I counted 12 with ease.

With my D36 SST-50 drop in, (granted, a 3000k tint high CRI with considerably less output than a white SST-50) I am able to count 13 of the fronds clearly. With my P4 modded 3C Maglite, 15 are visible.

With the domeless P60 SST-90, I was surprised to count 15, showing much better throw than the 'undamaged' SST-90!

For overall output, I use an equally informal but pretty repeatable test - flashlight sitting upright on my nightstand, camera tripod mounted in the middle of bedroom aimed at a large picture hanging on an opposite wall. I always use the same camera manual settings including white balance and take a shot of the picture. Only the near wall and ceiling bounce can reach the picture, so it should pretty fairly measure overall output.

The picture shot using the domeless SST-90 appears identical to the domed one I had taken the night before. The Malkoff 3D is dim by comparison in this bounce test, btw, but it is so tightly focused it out throws anything I have short of my trusty old Costco HID.

So, the domeless SST-90 (at least with the reflector nailbender uses) throws much better, and seems to have identical overall output.

I've noticed no tint change yet, but only have 30 minutes runtime on it domeless. It is the 5700k tint (GJ?)

I was ready to trash it after blowing the dome off, but found that I've just turned a flood light into a semi-thrower with a perfectly nice beam, so I'll be keeping it as is. I've already ordered the 'linger special' (2 XPG's mounted side-by-side) to take its place as my go-to flood light drop-in.

So much for my old beliefs that the dome was critical for light being properly directed to the reflector, and that 30% - 80% overall output is lost without a dome (don't remember where I had read that.) Nice to discover that what I've found is not all that different from others here, and it my drop in is not ruined afterall - just changed in beam characteristics.

John F
 
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jsholli

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I was warned by nailbender how fragile the dome on my P60 SST-90 drop in was. I dropped it in the garage, and in my haste to blow off the dirt I used a large compressor - and promptly blew the dome off.
.
.
.
So much for my old beliefs that the dome was critical for light being properly directed to the reflector, and that 30% - 80% overall output is lost without a dome (don't remember where I had read that.) Nice to discover that what I've found is not all that different from others here, and it my drop in is not ruined afterall - just changed in beam characteristics.

John F

Wow! Please keep us updated of any changes; this sounds very interesting for throw-addicts
 
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