Fire Foxes IV FF4

[Patriot]

I agree with BVH, the most distant objects still seem to be brighter with the 60W mode on the FF4.

Gosh, how did that UI slip through the cracks though?:huh::duh2:

 

[Stereodude]

I was actually wondering how it was set up. Is this something that we could flash a custom firmware too? I know it would void warranty and all that but in theory we could change the UI to what we want then.

If you know what microcontroller is on the board, yes it is possible (assuming they didn't pot the whole PCB).

 

[Stereodude]

Gosh, how did that UI slip through the cracks though?:huh::duh2:

Well, that's because the light is a rush to market job.

 

[one2tim]

I'm not convinced yet that they "can" be changed with current hardware and it if they can, that they will change anything. My guess is there's more of a chance that it will not change than it will change. If it doesn't change, I don't think I'll buy one. 60 Watt mode is almost useless and I've already had an FF3 so an FF4 with SMO at the same Wattage is not worth it for me.

Bvh, the ff4 have much better heat sinking then the ff3. My ff4 don't get hot at 40w where the ff3 got really hot. I would say running continously on 60w would be possible without the ff4 getting too hot.

 

[RichS]

I just got my FF4 and I have to jump in here in regards to the UI decision...I already took some pics and beamshots vs. my FF3 and will post shortly.

One of the first things I did was to check out the UI and the limits on the 60W mode. I put it on 60W mode and timed it - it did indeed kick down after exactly 3 minutes. It was very warm when it kicked down, but I left it on and put it in 24W mode to see if I could get it to cool down. I spent some time holding the light completely with my hands (acting as a heat sink), to see if it would cool down to the point of letting me put it back in 60W mode, but of course it never did (most likely due to the programming).

So, I turned it off and set it down - lens up. When I picked it up a few minutes later to see if the lens was still hot, the battery tube was very warm at that point, so a lot of heat had traveled down from the head to the battery tube. It was noticeably warmer than a few minutes earlier, and hot enough that I was concerned about the batteries getting over-heated.

The bottom-line (IMO), is that this light is too small to run at 60W for any length of time. The designers were smart to include a 3 minute limit and force a shut off so the light could cool down. Not doing so would put the user at risk, since the amount of heat build-up cannot be shed fast enough, even when the light is running at a lower wattage.

The fact that this little light puts out 60W of HID power for 3 minutes is phenominal! I am more than happy to own a light of this size that puts out even more light than a Polarion PH50 which I will most likely never own. More than that, it is at a size that is convenient enough to actually use, not to mention the ability to switch levels which adds to the practicality. Truth is, the 40W is probably too much power for long runs even with the extra heft of the FF4, but I love having it as an option when needed, and even the 60W if absolutely necessary.

Trust me, I had all the same concerns with the UI until I actually tried out the light and discovered the heat that this thing generates at 60W. Now I just think we all need to get real and understand the limits here and the importance of safety when dealing with a tube stuffed with high capacity li-ions, and be happy that they figured out a way to stuff 6,000+ lumens into this little beast!!

 

[Lips]

I just got my FF4 and I have to jump in here in regards to the UI decision...I already took some pics and beamshots vs. my FF3 and will post shortly.

One of the first things I did was to check out the UI and the limits on the 60W mode. I put it on 60W mode and timed it - it did indeed kick down after exactly 3 minutes. It was very warm when it kicked down, but I left it on and put it in 24W mode to see if I could get it to cool down. I spent some time holding the light completely with my hands (acting as a heat sink), to see if it would cool down to the point of letting me put it back in 60W mode, but of course it never did (most likely due to the programming).

So, I turned it off and set it down - lens up. When I picked it up a few minutes later to see if the lens was still hot, the battery tube was very warm at that point, so a lot of heat had traveled down from the head to the battery tube. It was noticeably warmer than a few minutes earlier, and hot enough that I was concerned about the batteries getting over-heated.

The bottom-line (IMO), is that this light is too small to run at 60W for any length of time. The designers were smart to include a 3 minute limit and force a shut off so the light could cool down. Not doing so would put the user at risk, since the amount of heat build-up cannot be shed fast enough, even when the light is running at a lower wattage.

The fact that this little light puts out 60W of HID power for 3 minutes is phenominal! I am more than happy to own a light of this size that puts out even more light than a Polarion PH50 which I will most likely never own. More than that, it is at a size that is convenient enough to actually use, not to mention the ability to switch levels which adds to the practicality. Truth is, the 40W is probably too much power for long runs even with the extra heft of the FF4, but I love having it as an option when needed, and even the 60W if absolutely necessary.

Trust me, I had all the same concerns with the UI until I actually tried out the light and discovered the heat that this thing generates at 60W. Now I just think we all need to get real and understand the limits here and the importance of safety when dealing with a tube stuffed with high capacity li-ions, and be happy that they figured out a way to stuff 6,000+ lumens into this little beast!!

Richs

I don't think it's the 3 minute limit that's at issue as you have to have a limit due to size and 4 batts. Optimize the UI by eliminating the restarts, wait for warm up, switch modes then go to... and allowing multiple visits to 60w (as that's how most practical use will be) still keeping time and heat protections intact... I think all doable and should make for a better experience. I believe the design has long term staying power so better to bite the bullet and do it sooner than later.

 

[RichS]

Richs

I don't think it's the 3 minute limit that's at issue as you have to have a limit due to size and 4 batts. Optimize the UI by eliminating the restarts, wait for warm up, switch modes then go to... and allowing multiple visits to 60w (as that's how most practical use will be) still keeping time and heat protections intact... I think all doable and should make for a better experience. I believe the design has long term staying power so better to bite the bullet and do it sooner than later.

Right - I understand it's the mandatory shut-off that is at issue, not necessarily the 3 minute limit. My point was, I think the designers knew that people would most likely use the full 3 minutes at 60W, and at that point the only way to cool it down and avoid over-heating the batteries would be to shut it down (not just lower the wattage). At least this is my perception based on how hot the battery tube got after the 3 minute run..

 

[Stereodude]

Right - I understand it's the mandatory shut-off that is at issue, not necessarily the 3 minute limit. My point was, I think the designers knew that people would most likely use the full 3 minutes at 60W, and at that point the only way to cool it down and avoid over-heating the batteries would be to shut it down (not just lower the wattage). At least this is my perception based on how hot the battery tube got after the 3 minute run..

It's still an easy fix in the microcontroller. Keep track of how long the 60W mode has been used and prevent the user from exceeding 3 minutes of 60W every 10 minutes (or whatever). It's pretty trivial to do that sort of thing in software.

 

[Patriot]

It's still an easy fix in the microcontroller. Keep track of how long the 60W mode has been used and prevent the user from exceeding 3 minutes of 60W every 10 minutes (or whatever). It's pretty trivial to do that sort of thing in software.

Still, I'd prefer a active thermal regulation. If the light is above a certain (PROPERLY) predetermined temperature, it wouldn't allow advancement to a higher output and or step down to a lower output level. Below that critical temperature, let it run as long as you want, given it stays below the critical temp. That is to say, if I'm in Alaska in the winter time, let me run the light 'full bore' until the batteries are dead.

 

[amaretto]

@RichS
I am 100% with you. It's not possible to run this little light at 60W more than a few minutes. Then it must cool down for safety. As it is designed its relatively safe even when used by careless owners. If you want 50-60W for continuous operation or more often, buy a Polarion. But then you have to accept 3 times the size and 6 times the price.

It's not only the light itself. Even the batteries heat up because of the high current. At 60W the FF4 draw >5A (imho). Therefore do not run 60W with 4x 18650 only (in series!) for long time.

Regarding its size and price, i know any other flashlight with this output. At 24W it is as bright as a Fenix TK75 on turbo, at 40W it beats the Nitecore TM26 on turbo! For that matter i need no 60W but i'll take the 60W burst as an extra.

FF3 vs. FF4: if FF4 had no 60W option i would buy it though because of more throw and mode switching.

Last but not least it is way too cheap to be perfect. No matter how it is designed, it never could fulfill everyone's wishes.

 

[ma_sha1]

Am I the only one that prefer the FF3's look than the FF4? The bigger head & fins starts to look ebay HIDish, and the shorter body looks awkward on the FF4. 60W is way over it's head on both heat and non IMR battery.

I'd rather buy a FF3 -V2, same FF3 body, 40W but SMO + 2 modes. Shine, if you really want to through a 60W mode in there, , then make it MaxaBeam style Turbo 30" only but repeatable trggering w/o shut-off.

Bring back the FF3 body!

 

[Stereodude]

Still, I'd prefer a active thermal regulation. If the light is above a certain (PROPERLY) predetermined temperature, it wouldn't allow advancement to a higher output and or step down to a lower output level. Below that critical temperature, let it run as long as you want, given it stays below the critical temp. That is to say, if I'm in Alaska in the winter time, let me run the light 'full bore' until the batteries are dead.

Well, that could be implemented to. The light may already have that capability. Doesn't it step down from 40W to 24W when it gets too hot?

 

[amaretto]

Doesn't it step down from 40W to 24W when it gets too hot?

yes, it steps down.

 

[3Cylinders]

yes, it steps down.

Yes, but the question is does it step down when it gets too hot, or just when it hits a 3 minute(or so) timer? If it's thermally regulated, then that's much better since it's actively protecting itself. A timer can limit use at the higher modes when it doesn't need to and also not step down soon enough (running at 60W in the middle of the Desert in August for instance).
At this point, I almost think the 60W mode should be a momentary switch that can't be locked on. Press and hold the side button and it goes to 60W only as long as you hold it (or 3-5 minutes or thermal stepdown, whichever comes first), then it automatically steps back down even if you're still holding the button. If you let off the button prior to the stepdown, it goes back to the last mode you were in.

 

[archimedes]

....I'd rather buy a FF3 -V2, same FF3 body, 40W but SMO + 2 modes....Bring back the FF3 body!

This would be exactly my preference, too

I would rather have a FF3 (40W) + 24W mode (only), than FF3 (40W) + 60W mode (only)....

 

[Lips]

FF4 has thermal regulation also and will step down from either 40w or 60w to 24w if temp reaches 55c. The temp kick-down was reduced from 65c on the FF3... Also if <10% battery detected the light will go into protection mode and not allow 60w... The added mass and fins to head allow about double the run-time at 40w before thermal regulation kicks in... Handle which adds more mass also being made.

For practical use having the ability to use the 60w file on demand and without stepping over poo poo is important. Stereo mentioned a way with timed way or you could use double click or any number of ways. Say your cruising along at 24w on a walk. Your at around 2.5 amps with plenty of heat and batt management for this light. Some tiny single cell 18650 xml lights run at 3 amps... You want to max light something up down the road for 20 seconds, go to 40w or 60w. If you hit 60w for a short time once and want to do it again you have to turn light off-restart-switch to 24w-press and hold to go to 60w again. 60w in a small package is not meant to run for long durations so go for multiple runs at 60w. Keep the time limits and safety controls so inexperienced user can't over run the light. You run the light for the 3 full minutes at 60w it's going to be too hot to use and no battery left... Nice that you can do that but not practical... If you go with 8 or 12 battery extension tubes at some point the UI has to change anyway... JMHO

 

[Patriot]

FF4 has thermal regulation also and will step down from either 40w or 60w to 24w if temp reaches 55c. The temp kick-down was reduced from 65c on the FF3... Also if <10% battery detected the light will go into protection mode and not allow 60w... The added mass and fins to head allow about double the run-time at 40w before thermal regulation kicks in.

Outstanding! Great to hear that it's not timed!:twothumbs

In theory, an Antarctic explorer would be able to run the light continuously at 60W as long as it doesn't reach 55c.

With regards to some of the FF3 comparisons, of course there was a size increase but I think the FF4 picked up enough output, run-time and throw performance that it should offset most objections. We knew this was going to be a new, updated, addition to the FF series and I can certainly understand they'd want to explore new performance envelopes. Those wanting something smaller can still pick up a FF3 as I've seen them floating around the Marketplace.

 

[Lips]

Outstanding! Great to hear that it's not timed!:twothumbs

In theory, an Antarctic explorer would be able to run the light continuously at 60W as long as it doesn't reach 55c.

With regards to some of the FF3 comparisons, of course there was a size increase but I think the FF4 picked up enough output, run-time and throw performance that it should offset most objections. We knew this was going to be a new, updated, addition to the FF series and I can certainly understand they'd want to explore new performance envelopes. Those wanting something smaller can still pick up a FF3 as I've seen them floating around the Marketplace.

Paul it's still timed to 3 min on 60w so max run-time without cycling the light is 3min. Running at 60w for a long run is gonna eat the 4 batteries quick since the 18650's so inefficient at those amps. Thermal protection would come in to play if you are in a hot environment with no wind and have ran the light hot at 40w for a while and then go to 60w for 3 min. When sensor hits 55c the light will kick down to 24w between 0 - 3 min somewhere. If you reach 55c even on 40w it will kick down to 24w as on FF3. Changed from 65c (FF3) to 55c (FF4) simply for less heat to the hand... For me the heat is the best argument for being able to go to 60w for less time but more often as you can manage the heat and battery. Still having 3 min runs is ample time at max if you want to run it that long on max and let it cool down on off... I imagine if you had 8 battery pack giving more mass and handle you could run it for as long as you wanted.

 

[InfinitusEquitas]

Hey guys, question for you, are you able to turn the FF4 off using the side button?
I haven't gone through this thread post by post (yet), but have gone through Lip's thread elsewhere, and can't find an answer.
As far as I can tell the UI is as follows;

1. Tailcap button to create circuit.
2. Turn on light by using side button. Light turns on into 40W medium mode, takes ~10-20 seconds to stabilize.
3. Short quick push on side button drops it to low mode ~2000 lumens.
4. Another short push brings the light back up to medium.
5. From low only, a longer push (2 seconds) will put the light into the 59W turbo mode.
6. Light will go into temperature protection after about 3 minutes.
7. Only way to turn the light off, is using tailcap button.

Considering how bright the light is, I really don't mind being able to only go into High once, but it's extremely annoying to have to use the tailcap to turn off the light every time.
Can one of you please confirm that this is the case?

 

[RichS]

Hey guys, question for you, are you able to turn the FF4 off using the side button?
I haven't gone through this thread post by post (yet), but have gone through Lip's thread elsewhere, and can't find an answer.
As far as I can tell the UI is as follows;

1. Tailcap button to create circuit.
2. Turn on light by using side button. Light turns on into 40W medium mode, takes ~10-20 seconds to stabilize.
3. Short quick push on side button drops it to low mode ~2000 lumens.
4. Another short push brings the light back up to medium.
5. From low only, a longer push (2 seconds) will put the light into the 59W turbo mode.
6. Light will go into temperature protection after about 3 minutes.
7. Only way to turn the light off, is using tailcap button.

Considering how bright the light is, I really don't mind being able to only go into High once, but it's extremely annoying to have to use the tailcap to turn off the light every time.
Can one of you please confirm that this is the case?

Yes - my FF4 operates the same way - you have to press the tail cap button to turn it off. So you find that extremely annoying? Really??