LaCrosse BC-9009 / BC-900 - The Melt-Downs Continue...

[Marc999]

[/QUOTE] I don't want anyone to have a fire.:devil:

For those few posters who repeatedly repost Kramer's pictures - take a GOOD look at the last two pictures where you see the three cells together. Look at the writing, wrapper's color/the way it melts and the endcap. The middle cell is a cheap Chinese made fake eneloop.



PM me about sales[/QUOTE]


Hmm, I only see one set of 'Kramers' pics. in this thread. Anyway, I took a GOOD look at the last 2 pictures. Hasn't Sanyo come out with various eneloop packaging over the last few years? I wasn't aware there was only ever one version of eneloop. The way it melts/color/end-cap? Come on...lol.

 

[fhenixlynx]

when i use my lacrosse charger at 700 and above i run a small fan on it to help cool it,should not have to better safe than sorry!!!!! no meltdowns yet.if i leave it for any amount of time i put it in a flat pyrex dish,but dont leave home all day with it charging.

 

[Elliot]

Marc999, I have over 60 eneloops and Duraloops - all have the MIJ endcap like the two outside cells. The middle one shows the classic fake eneloop profile.

The reason you have not seen the multiple pictures is because you haven't been keeping up with these silly threads.

You could also look for the "fake eneloop" thread. The endcaps are pictured there.

 

[ShawnLam]

I'm not going to get into the debate if the Kramer Eneloops are fakes or the real thing but the problem I experienced wasn't with the battery overheating. So if you think running a fan will prevent a meltdown don't fool yourself.

Yes my batteries were hot but the problem was that the charger experienced the meltdown, originating on the underside of the board.

And for the record my Eneloops were spaced on the outside slots and were purchased at Costco - so again, not a battery overheating problem but a defective charger that is a fire hazard.

I have to disagree with the position Elliot is taking on this matter by offering to buy used chargers. I feel it is irresponsible to imply and insist there is not problem with them as it is obvious there is a serious safety issue. I have a second charger that was purchased in the same batch as the one with the meltdown and I will offer it to US consumer product safety commission. If they aren't interested then I might just take it outside, set-up a camera, and see if I can document a meltdown.

 

[MarioJP]

I have charged 8 duraloops at the same time using both La crosse charger. all 8 at 1Amp charging. They don't get hot at all. Warm yes hot no. Though I have read somewhere that I should not buy batteries from ebay you can end up with dud ones. I only stick to sources I know like wallgreens or something similar.

In fact I quite don't trust Ebay to begin with. That's just me anyways lol.

 

[TakeTheActive]

when i use my lacrosse charger at 700 and above i run a small fan on it to help cool it,should not have to better safe than sorry!!!!!

A fan is not going to matter if the MOSFET LOCKS UP in the FULL ON state. :shakehead It WILL delay the MAX TEMP shutdown though if the overtemp problem is NOT the MOSFET (or microprocessor) but something else. :thinking: :sigh:

...no meltdowns yet.if i leave it for any amount of time i put it in a flat pyrex dish,but dont leave home all day with it charging.

IMO, based on the recent FLURRY of BC-9009 'Meltdowns', *ALL* BC-9009 (and BC-900 v32) owners should operate their chargers on on inflammable surface, like either a pyrex dish or a ceramic tile. BC-900 v33+ owners could also follow suit, just as a precaution.

BTW, what model (BC-900 or BC-9009) and version # (displayed in the 4th channel readout during 'Boot') do you own?

CPF members should probably start posting BOTH pieces of information when they experience a 'Meltdown'. That means GET THE VERSION # TODAY while you can still read the display!

What version # is La Crosse up to? Did the BC-9009 pickup where the BC-900 left off?

How about the BC-700? Are those version #s LT 32, or was it totally separate? :thinking:

 

[Turbo DV8]

It may be time to start considering the hardware. The frequency of problems with the BC-9009 might suggest it is constructed differently inside from the BC-900 even though it is programmed the same.

I am sorry, I can't recall or give more details, but when I had my 900 and a 9009 opened up side by side, I noted numerous visible differences both in components, and to a lesser degree, casing assembly. Although I have a BS degree in electronics technology in my distant past (long since rendered useless by a change in career .. use it or lose it!), I am not an electronics expert, so I could not give more detail even if I recalled the differences.

 

[ShawnLam]

Both my models are BC-9009 version 35. I just plugged-in the one that had the meltdown and it still runs! Pretty scary.

 

[Turbo DV8]

Look at the writing, wrapper's color/the way it melts and the endcap. The middle cell is a cheap Chinese made fake eneloop.

Are you suggesting that the LaCrosse is racist?

 

[Elliot]

ShawnLam: I'm sorry you mis-understood my offer to buy chargers. I have never said and would never say that there isn't a problem with the LaCrosse chargers. I offered to buy working chargers in good condition that people have been frightened into believing are death traps.

I feel that charging a cell is like cooking. If you burn it - do you blame the oven? I don't feel like repeating my charging methods, but when I use my chargers if a cell gets too hot - it gets thrown out, just like my steaks. I don't wait for the plastic to melt. Many people would not agree with me and that's Ok too.

Yes, equipment, especially new electronics fail at an initially higher rate than equipment that's been in service for a while. And Maha makes a better charger than the LaCrosse. It's also much larger and costs more. One should expect more for their money. I happen to like the LaCrosse for its ease of use and the "quad" display. Both chargers work for me, I gave the Maha to my best friend a while back. He likes playing with the full set of features etc.

Years ago I worked for G.E., RCA and Bell Labs in testing and launching new products. At that time we would have never put up with a product with this failure rate. But times are different now and we (the USA) don't know how to produce anything (well almost) of quality at a reasonable cost so we leave it to the countries with the cheapest labor pool.

I got two bc-900 chargers, maybe three years ago. Delivered to my door the cost was $62. That's two chargers, 16 cells, those size adapters and two Wonderful travel bags. I love those travel bags!:thumbsup:. As soon as I checked them out one went directly to my retired brother the budding photographer. Having worrked for NASA designing their fuel cells and power supplies - he thinks the LaCrosse is just fine for its price.

 

[bob_ninja]

A quick look at Thomas Dist. has Maha C9000 @ $49 and BC900 @ $36
Not to mention extra cells that come with BC900!
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to expect (some) lower quality components are used in the cheaper product given similar functionality implemented.

You wouldn't want to redline cheaper Hondas and Toyota whereas you can redline much more expensive BMWs without damage.

Point is, lower quality products use lower quality components and are less able to deal with performance close to speced limits. Which is basically what is happening here and why BC-700 seems to be fine.

My BC900 is several years old and 99% of the time I use 200 and 500 mA rates (lately more 500). I feel that so long as it can terminate reasonably well below 0.5C it is *MUCH* safer to not push it to higher rates. I used 1000 mA maybe 2-3 times total in the past 4 years or so. As long as your cells are in good conditions (over 80% of original capacity) then below 0.5C rates should be Ok. Still I only use it when present.

Regarding newer version, it wouldn't surprise me that they switched some components to yet cheaper lower quality alternatives. Just guessing that they may be pushing hard to reduce costs to increase profits, hence more failures. Of course, this is exactly what happens when we blindly chase lowest cost products and ignore all else.

If I were getting a charger today I would probably stay away from it or maybe go with BC-700. I love mine and still use it a lot. However, I only use it when present and do all my longer tasks like refresh and conditioning on Maha C9000. You only get what you pay for, so clearly BC900/700 cannot possibly be as reliable as more expensive chargers.

Too bad, I was hoping they would actually go the other way and come up with a BC1000 of higher quality.

 

[ShawnLam]

I feel that charging a cell is like cooking. If you burn it - do you blame the oven?

Hi Elliot - thanks for taking the time to reply.

I think you might be missing the main point here. To use your cooking analogy, the problem with the La Crosse charger is that the food isn't the thing that is burning but rather the oven is burning around the food.

Rather than repeat everything I'm posting on my blog I'll simply include the links on CFP so you guys can follow the progress:
Part 1 Mainly a repeat of what I have posted on CPF, with photos.
Part 2 I contacted the US Consumer Product Safety Commission, the seller - Amazon, and La Crosse.

Result: Amazon is no longer selling the BC-9009 directly and lists it as "Product Under Review". Unfortunately marketplace sellers can still sell the charger. So I'm calling this a "small victory".

I'm working on Part 3 right now.

 

[CM]

...You wouldn't want to redline cheaper Hondas and Toyota whereas you can redline much more expensive BMWs without damage.

Point is, lower quality products use lower quality components and are less able to deal with performance close to speced limits. Which is basically what is happening here...

Expensive == Quality?????

Gotta love some of the garbage that's perpetuated on the internet. I'll crawl back into my hole....

 

[Mr Happy]

Expensive == Quality?????

Gotta love some of the garbage that's perpetuated on the internet. I'll crawl back into my hole....

No, you are falling into a logical fallacy yourself.

Expensive is no guarantee of quality to be sure, but cheap sure is a good indicator of poor quality. When you buy stuff at the dollar store do you expect it to be strong, well designed and long lasting?

To put it another way, the $35 cost of the BC-9009 is about the same as a tank of gas that lasts a week, or lunch for two at a moderate restaurant. Pocket change in other words. I do honestly wonder why people expect an item that costs the equivalent of pocket change to contain high quality complex electronics, to have advanced features, and to survive years of use? It really doesn't add up.

 

[ShawnLam]

I do honestly wonder why people expect an item that costs the equivalent of pocket change to contain high quality complex electronics, to have advanced features, and to survive years of use? It really doesn't add up.

We can't always expect that our products survive years of use but we can DEMAND and EXPECT that when they do fail they are not dangerous. A battery charger that overheats and melts is simply unacceptable.

In my case my BC-9009 was only six weeks old.

Bottom line: The chargers are not safe and are a fire hazard. They don't have an North American safety certification.

 

[KiwiMark]

To put it another way, the $35 cost of the BC-9009 is about the same as a tank of gas that lasts a week, or lunch for two at a moderate restaurant. Pocket change in other words. I do honestly wonder why people expect an item that costs the equivalent of pocket change to contain high quality complex electronics, to have advanced features, and to survive years of use? It really doesn't add up.

But my older one is over 4 years old and working well. I have lost count of how many AA & AAA batteries that it has charged, but it is quite a lot.

 

[Elliot]

Great Stuff ShawnLam! :thumbsup:

I wouldn't be too concerned about the spelling of English abbreviations. For example: NiCad can't be used without permission in the US. "Ac" is just awful, but I've seen worse. (some language -> Chinese -> many languages)

The word "battery" gets my EE friends all hot and bothered. For the things we are discussing the correct term is "cell." But, common usage won out a long time ago.

I have no idea of what's going on with the power adapter. The UL warnings were issued for an adapter with the same numbers but very different specs. In these cases the adapter itself was breaking down (I THINK?); not the end device.

Is there a serial number on the inside of your La Crosse charger? This might help La Crosse in determining the actual site/place of manufacture. The Chinese are well known for "cottage" or home assembly and this does not sit well with anyone outside of China.

Very interesting stuff indeed. I've never really trusted UL in the USA. Better than nothing, I guess. They are a private organization and their Seal of Approval carries no weight, other than its "Good Name," the're like Consumer Reports or JD Powers. Slap a phony UL sticker on your product and all they can do is make you take it off. You can still sell the product, without their logo.

As to the FCC: They are an arm of the US Congress, with management appointed by the President, in other words, the worst of all worlds.

If you really want to get into dangerous home electronics – look up Trust/Ultra/xxx/Fire Li-ion cells and chargers. When Li-ion cells go, it's like deep frying a frozen turkey.

I will be following your blogs. I like the charger, but also like your persistence.lovecpf

 

[KiwiMark]

the AC adapter bears a counterfeit UL Listing.

If this AC adapter is dodgy then that could DEFINITELY lead to the charger failures. Too many volts can lead to components overheating and then releasing the magic smoke (without which the components will no longer work).

 

[Mr Happy]

We can't always expect that our products survive years of use but we can DEMAND and EXPECT that when they do fail they are not dangerous. A battery charger that overheats and melts is simply unacceptable.

In my case my BC-9009 was only six weeks old.

Take a look at my blog post for the full details but here is part 3.

The Underwriters Laboratories has opened an investigation because the AC adapter bears a counterfeit UL Listing. The same counterfeit listing number was used on another counterfeit AC adapter and UL issued a public notice to warn customers and forced a recall.

Bottom line: The chargers are not safe and are a fire hazard. They don't have an North American safety certification. The AC adapters are illegally displaying a counterfeit UL safety certification when they have not gone through the process.

I recognize what you are saying, but please understand I was responding directly to CM's comments on quality. I think in general consumers expect too much for too little today and it has had an overall negative effect on the market when it comes to product design and quality. If you put too little money into a product you are just inviting low quality goods, whether they be battery chargers, flashlights or anything else.

 

[CM]

No, you are falling into a logical fallacy yourself...

So you are saying that there is no such thing as a high quality at a low price? Your "...cheap sure is a good indicator of poor quality" is a logical fallacy. For example, I buy Hondas and Toyotas. They're inexpensive. But they not of poor quality. I've taken a Honda Accord to redline more often than I care to remember. It has lasted over 250k miles before someone rammed into it. Poor quality? Nope, I don't think so.