raggie33
*the raggedier*
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2003
- Messages
- 13,643
i love it getting dark earlier it relaxes me
There are human norms built around solar time which has been historically bound to phenomena of great importance to circadian rhythm that largely transcend cultures: sunrise 06:00, noon 12:00, sunset 18:00, depth of night 00:00. Temperature tends to crest in the late afternoon while it normally troughs in the early hours of the morning. We are diurnal creatures - many generations of widespread artificial lighting hasn't nudged these preferences too much. Shift workers often struggle mightily with wake/sleep schedule despite being able to exercise considerable control over indoor environments.Putting the whole world on UTC, from the start would have make local noon hour a simple recognition of a localities local difference of UTC.
I wouldn't have a problem thinking of noon locally being something like 7:00 .
Most of us are. A significant minority are the opposite. Back when I was forced to keep a "normal" schedule for work or school, I wasn't myself until early afternoon. My body just told me I should still be in bed. And I seem to peak at something like 2 or 3 AM in terms of mental acuity.We are diurnal creatures - many generations of widespread artificial lighting hasn't nudged these preferences too much. Shift workers often struggle mightily with wake/sleep schedule despite being able to exercise considerable control over indoor environments.
Indeed the 24-hour economy is a very real thing - something I used to be a part of working swing shift for ~5 years and still participate in doing on-call weeks as well as the occasional midnight/weekend deployment. During my swing sift days getting up before noon used to be a struggle on weekends and off days - despite knowing I worked until midnight the day prior no one who worked a nine to five seemed to be able to comprehend that presenting myself at 08:00 meant a level of time shifting they themselves did not engage in. Working Sunday-Thursday was a real treat on the weeks they lined up a 4-day offsite training class during the week - end the day at 23:30 Sunday night then be at the training site 08:00 the next day; always hazy/surreal experiences for me, especially that Monday on <6 hours' sleep.Most of us are. A significant minority are the opposite. Back when I was forced to keep a "normal" schedule for work or school, I wasn't myself until early afternoon. My body just told me I should still be in bed. And I seem to peak at something like 2 or 3 AM in terms of mental acuity.
Yea my natural sleep schedule is like, wake up at 10-11AM, go to bed 2-3AM. Anything else makes me sick in the long run. I can stay up later but I always feel wrong waking up past 12. My energy is highest around midnight, lowest around 4-6pm. Usually I have to take a 1-2h nap around 4 its so bad.Most of us are. A significant minority are the opposite. Back when I was forced to keep a "normal" schedule for work or school, I wasn't myself until early afternoon. My body just told me I should still be in bed. And I seem to peak at something like 2 or 3 AM in terms of mental acuity.
Changing the clocks twice a year is annoying I agree. Why would anyone want it to get dark early in the summer when people are outside more and dark at 4:30 in the afternoon in the winter though? It would get light at 3:00 in the morning in the summer making it harder to sleep when most are sleeping at that time. In the winter it is dark when I leave work and drive home in the dark and can't do much outside where you need to see. It is depressing. I would just make DST permanent so you could make more use of the daylight, as in being light more while you are actually awake and out and about.Here we go again this Sunday with the twice annual ritual of clock changing. Numerous studies show it's bad for our health, especially when we go back in spring, forcing people to get up an hour earlier. While there are now 19 states seeking to make DST permanent, I think this is the wrong approach to it. Unless and until Congress acts, no state can make DST permanent. However, any state can opt out of DST right now, and make standard time permanent. Arizona and Hawaii already do so. This is the more sensible route. I don't understand the obsession with wanting to keep the clocks an hour ahead permanently. This forces everyone into an earlier schedule, which is obviously bad for night people, and none too great for those who aren't 100% morning people. Besides, standard time is called standard time for a reason. None of the reasons given for keeping DST year round make much sense. A lot of workers already have some degree of flexibility in their schedule. If they want to start work an hour earlier so they have an extra hour of daylight after work, nothing is stopping them. The point is we already have a path to not needing to change the clocks twice a year, namely stick to standard time. Why go the difficult route (keeping DST permanent) which requires Congress to act instead?
I'm at work for 06:00. There's no way I'm going to start at 05:00 everyday. I go to bed at midnight so the 06:00 start is early enough.Just start your work day an hour earlier. It's effectively the same thing.
Because going with standard time is the far easier route to avoid changing clocks twice a year. It can be done right now without needing to wait for an act of Congress which likely will never see the light of day (no pun intended). Also, DST is a gimmick. You're not gaining any more hours of daylight. At the winter solstice in NYC the sun rises at 7:16 AM and sets at 4:31 PM standard time. Even with DST most people would be getting home when it's dark. If enough people in a workplace desire more hours of daylight after work they can petition their employer to start an hour earlier. That's essentially what DST does anyway. Those who have flexible schedules can do this on their own. Why impose getting up an hour earlier on everyone who doesn't have a flexible schedule with DST? It especially hurts school children when studies have shown that students, especially in high school, do better with later start times. DST has its roots in a time when most people either farmed or worked shifts in factories. The concept is arguably obsolete.Changing the clocks twice a year is annoying I agree. Why would anyone want it to get dark early in the summer when people are outside more and dark at 4:30 in the afternoon in the winter though? It would get light at 3:00 in the morning in the summer making it harder to sleep when most are sleeping at that time. In the winter it is dark when I leave work and drive home in the dark and can't do much outside where you need to see. It is depressing. I would just make DST permanent so you could make more use of the daylight, as in being light more while you are actually awake and out and about.
If you need a nap at 4 then you probably should just start getting up later, if your schedule allows. If you're still in bed after noon, so be it. You'll feel much better, trust me. Since 1990 I've worked at home and just followed my body's natural clock. Yea, in the winter months that might mean I only see a few hours of daylight but I never seem to get SAD because of it.Yea my natural sleep schedule is like, wake up at 10-11AM, go to bed 2-3AM. Anything else makes me sick in the long run. I can stay up later but I always feel wrong waking up past 12. My energy is highest around midnight, lowest around 4-6pm. Usually I have to take a 1-2h nap around 4 its so bad.
This is EXACTLY what night people go though trying to keep an 8AM to 4PM or 9AM to 5PM schedule. It really is like a day person trying to do the graveyard shift. Hard to get people to understand this, especially the part about hitting burnout after 6 or 9 months. I recall when I was in school, I really needed summer vacations. 9 months of fighting my body clock left me exhausted. Couldn't take summers off when working, so the only real answer was to quit work when I reached burnout stage, take a few months off, then get another job. Of course, night people are frequently labeled "lazy" by society as a result.Don't miss swing shift at all. Years later I did a six-month stint on graveyards that I could not have managed for one more week - I fought my circadian rhythm and lost, badly.
That would make things interesting, that's for sure.The effort to establish 12:00 noon as solar noon just seems unnecessary and overly complex for the world. Putting the whole world on UTC, from the start would have make local noon hour a simple recognition of a localities local difference of UTC.
I wouldn't have a problem thinking of noon locally being something like 7:00 .
At this point in my life (i.e. more or less retired) it doesn't affect me, either. I'm annoyed more at having to change the clock twice a year. I'd prefer we stay on standard time for the reasons I mentioned, but if we settle on DST instead I guess I would be OK with it. Either way, we avoid this stupidity of changing clocks twice a year.DST never really bothers me much. My work is flexible. I can show up at sites at 8am or 8pm. Doesn't matter since there is no one there.
Depending upon how far north you are, there's often little or no daylight until 8 AM anyway even if DST were in effect.
If you're working outside, why would it matter if you come before 8 AM? If the people you're doing work for are sleeping, so be it. If the work is inside the house, then hours of daylight are moot. I remember when we had the driveway done and the roof done. Both times they came well before 8. Didn't matter if we were up or not then.
EDIT: Just wondering what's wrong with using artificial lighting? I redid my patio (i.e. set the paver blocks in concrete instead of dirt because they had shifted) in December 2019. Being a late riser, and having to take care of my mother first, I often didn't get to it until the sun was down. The floodlights I had in the yard were adequate. I see super bright ones when they're doing road work at night.
I agree wholeheartedly. Going to DST permanently is just stupid. The sun would never be overhead or at its highest point (however you want to look at it without getting into an astronomy lecture) at noon. It's just dumb. Go back to standard time and leave it alone. The EU is looking at ending DST, I hope they choose to go to standard time all year long and not do the dumb thing of going to summer time all year long. Numerous health experts including sleep experts show how bad it is for us to "spring forward". They had a good opportunity, I thought, of ending it in 2000, but no. They instead increased the time we are on DST. We now are out of sync about eight months out of the year! And since different countries do it on different dates, you never know how to convert when communicating with other nations. I think it needs to end, worldwide. There is a human cost to it that they are not looking at. The only reason we have it now and eight months of it at that, is that businesses have successfully lobbied to continue it and expand it. And here in the US of A, money talks, to heck with the human costs. Kids have increased anxiety, lower test scores. School starts too darned early anyway. Look at other countries in which they don't start until 9:00 or thereabouts. (tangent, sorry) Adults have more automobile accidents, workplace accidents. Increased numbers of heart attacks, etc. It's an antiquated practice that might have had some use in war time, back when the major expense of fuel was on lighting. But now, we have air-conditioning as the biggest fuel expense. And if we are up and out later, then those costs increase. EVERYTHING I have read shows that there is little to no savings in fuel. But there is a real and clear human cost. Lobby your congressmen and senators to end this idiotic practice.Here we go again this Sunday with the twice annual ritual of clock changing. Numerous studies show it's bad for our health, especially when we go back in spring, forcing people to get up an hour earlier. While there are now 19 states seeking to make DST permanent, I think this is the wrong approach to it. Unless and until Congress acts, no state can make DST permanent. However, any state can opt out of DST right now, and make standard time permanent. Arizona and Hawaii already do so. This is the more sensible route. I don't understand the obsession with wanting to keep the clocks an hour ahead permanently. This forces everyone into an earlier schedule, which is obviously bad for night people, and none too great for those who aren't 100% morning people. Besides, standard time is called standard time for a reason. None of the reasons given for keeping DST year round make much sense. A lot of workers already have some degree of flexibility in their schedule. If they want to start work an hour earlier so they have an extra hour of daylight after work, nothing is stopping them. The point is we already have a path to not needing to change the clocks twice a year, namely stick to standard time. Why go the difficult route (keeping DST permanent) which requires Congress to act instead?
That's the end result of getting people up too early for their internal clock. Even though most people are day people, start times earlier than 9 or 10 are too early for most people. And DST forces people into an earlier schedule.Kids have increased anxiety, lower test scores. School starts too darned early anyway. Look at other countries in which they don't start until 9:00 or thereabouts. (tangent, sorry) Adults have more automobile accidents, workplace accidents. Increased numbers of heart attacks, etc.
It might make sense for stores but like you said, just change the store hours. Probably better for the employees too since they'll start later and end later. That said, this whole "more light at the end of the day" never made much sense to me. I figure on your days off, which is when most people do stuff, they can get up as they wish to maximize daylight hours. If you work or go to school, the day is pretty much shot anyway. I was always too tired to do much of anything besides watch TV, or maybe go online. Doesn't matter if the sun is up to do that. So why force everyone to an earlier schedule just to accommodate a relative minority of people who might want to do outdoor stuff after work or school?If schools and businesses want more light at the end of the day, change their hours! It's done all over the world. Stores will have summer hours and winter hours. I'd much rather have that than changing the clocks, makes more sense too. That way only the businesses that want to, will do it. Leave the rest of us alone. My vote is: end it. Looks like the EU is going to, fingers crossed.