Maglite modding problems. With pictures of my failures!

LivingDaylight

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Thanks for the great response, moderator007.

I have a Quark "X" AA^2 light that puts out just over 300 lumens from 2 eneloops. To help me understand the theory behind this, could you explain how it's generating so much light from only 2.4 volts? Does the driver increase the voltage? Or is this because the XM-L has a much lower Vf?
 

moderator007

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Yes, your Quark uses a boost driver. This is the formula P(power in watts)=V(votage) X I(current). The power in must equal the power out plus the losses of the driver and the voltage losses in the connections and host. If the led needs 2.9v to be run at 750ma to produce 300 lumens. Then P=V X I. 2.9v x .750a = 2.175 watts to the led. So taking in the account for other loses of about 20% (.542watts) the supply is probably seeing a 2.71 watt power consumption. Power in has to be equal to the power out plus losses. Now we can estimate the power going in. Divide the P(power) by the V(voltage going in 2.4v) this should give you a close estimate of the current being drawn from the batteries. (P) 2.71watts / (V) 2.4v = (I) 1.13amps Should be some where around 1.3amps or 1300ma going in. The driver takes the voltage and boost it up by using more current to create the same power out plus losses. This is when then the batteries are fully charged. As the batteries drain the voltage becomes less and less and the driver ups the current draw from the batteries to try and maintain the same power out to the led. It regulates the current being drawn from the batteries with the decreasing voltage to try and keep the voltage and current the same to the led. So it may be pulling 1300ma from the batteries at 2.4v to produce 750ma at 2.9v to the led. You can also estimate power to the led with knowing the batery voltage plus the current being drawn from them while in the flashlight (tail cap current).

Buck drivers work the opposite way they take the over supply of voltage and buck it down to what the led voltage (Vf) needs to be run at a certain current. The buck driver draws less current than it puts out to the led because power in equals power out plus losses. You have a higher voltage going in than out. But as I said before once the supply voltage plus other voltage losses reachs the Vf of the led at its current associated with that VF the driver will become direct drive. The supply voltage will determine how much current is going through the led. You can not have a specific current going through the led if its forward voltage is not meet for that current. Look at jtr1862 test and you can see as the current rises the Vf also rises. If the supply doesnt meet that voltage it will not meet that current. A lower forward voltage led helps in the fact that it takes longer for the driver to lose regulation as the supply voltage decreases. If the Vf is 3.7v then once the supply plus losses reach that voltage it falls out of regulation. If the Vf is 2.9v then once the supply plus losses reach that voltage it falls out of regulation. With the 2.9v Vf the driver stays in regulation much longer. From what I know 3 Nimhs in series will be considered drained at around 2.7v with a freshly charged voltage of 3.75v or greater.
 
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yazovyet

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Justin Case

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Right. 7135 drivers burn up excess voltage as waste heat. 7135 driver efficiency is basically Vload/Vbatt. So on the one hand, you would like to match Vbatt as closely to Vload as possible to get the max efficiency and least amount of waste heat generation. That works great if your power source is a bench supply or something like that. It gets trickier when the power source is a battery pack. The challenges are that you don't generally have infinitely selectable voltage, unlike with a bench supply, and the voltage out is not constant with batteries. With batteries, your voltage levels are quantized in steps of say 1.2V for NiMH or 3.7V for Li-ions. And the voltage out continually changes under load. So you might start out at 1.5V with NiMH or alkalines, immediately sag to some lower voltage when under load, and keep drooping from there (at different slopes depending on cell chemistry, cell quality, cell size, current draw, etc).

Thus, not only can it be tough to match Vload with Vbatt, but Vbatt doesn't stay constant.

You also probably want to have some voltage headroom so that you will have decent runtime in full regulation. You don't want to have Vbatt exactly equal to Vload. You need the headroom not only because of the non-constant battery voltage, but also because 7135 drivers require 0.12V of headroom and the flashlight system will also have parasitic resistance from things like battery contacts, spring contacts, and switch contacts.

When you have a low Vf LED, that can make it easier to power with a single Li-ion or perhaps 3xNiMH (or maybe 3xalkaline) if the current draw isn't too high. Something like an XM-L *might* work, for example if you ran it at 1A forward current. The XM-L's Vf is probably 2.9V or so and 3xD NiMH and 3xD alkaline both can stay above 3.6V for a fairly long run time. But if you try to power the same XM-L at say 2.8A drive current, now Vf could be 3.35V. Add the 0.12V for the 7135 overhead and you need a minimum Vbatt of about 3.5V. Since the current is also greater, parasitic resistance becomes more important in terms of parasitic voltage loss. An 0.1 ohm total parasitic resistance means a voltage loss of 0.28V, meaning you now need about 3.75V min Vbatt. 3xD NiMH can still deliver that, but for how long relative to the regulated run time that you desire? I doubt that 3xD alkaline will ever run in regulation. A big 1xLi-ion setup could hold above 3.75V for a while, but again, how long relative to your requirement and relative to the total capacity of the cell?

So 3xNiMH and 1xLi-ion give you best efficiency, but staying in regulation can be tricky depending on a host of interdependent factors.

But the straightforward solution of adding more Vbatt costs you in terms of efficiency/waste heat. You definitely can go with 4xNiMH and stay comfortably in full regulation. But your driver efficiency will probably start out around 70%, which is a bit low. Personally, I would not worry too much about that. 7135 drivers are rugged and you can always heat sink the driver. It gets tougher if you start piggybacking a lot of 7135 chips to get much higher drive currents.

However, you can't go with 2xLi-ion, since Vbatt will exceed the maximum rated input voltage of the 7135 chip. You risk frying the driver.

My 7135 setups generally use modest drive currents and low Vf LEDs such that 1xLi-ion delivers more than enough voltage. If I need more drive current, which increases Vf, I typically go for buck drivers (or boost drivers).
 
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LivingDaylight

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Thanks for another great post Justin.

Based on that info, I don't see much advantage to a 7135 over a buck or boost. If I understand correctly the 7135 is hotter and less efficient; in what situations is it a good choice?
 

yazovyet

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1) When the Vin (batteries) is close to, and slightly above, the Vout (LED voltage) it is fairly efficient.
2) Those drivers are cheap and simple.
 

LivingDaylight

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Excellent!

I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain further. I see some turns thrown around a fair bit. Are these definitions correct? If not some sort of glossary (if it exists) would be great!

Vf: "forward voltage," the voltage going through the LED, measured by puttig multimeter contacts next to LED

Vbatt: voltage of the battery circuit when not under load, measured by putting multimeter on battery pack/circuit

Vload: voltage of battery circuit under load, measured by putting multimeter on tail of flashlight while it's turned on

Are those in the right ballpark?
 

yazovyet

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pretty close.
Vload isnt clear to me, coudl be either the load (LED) placed on the driver or the voltage of teh batteries while under load (operating).
on second thought, looking back at justin case's post it appears he means that Vload is the LED (load placed on the outputsideof the driver)

the current is what you woudl take at the tail, generally you remove the tail cap and use the meter to make that connection that the tail cap woudl have made. when dealing with high currents (like an amp or more) the meter and the leads can introduce resistance, this will often make the current appear lower than it woudl be under normal operating conditions.
 

LivingDaylight

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More good info.

Let's say I wanted to make a maglite Mod with similar performance as the Fenix TK41.

I understand that light uses 8 AA batteries in two banks, which would be 4.8V. The current to the LED would top off at around 2.8A, so I plugged those stats into the driver list and got these results. Only two of those show 2.8A, and come with a "buyer beware" warning. So I'm not sure how to proceed.

Here is the XM-L I am looking at.

Also, where can I get an 8 AA to D size adapter?
 

yazovyet

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you can try to put 1 or 2 Dcells in a D mag, then try putting 4 AAs in place of the last cell. don't jam them in or put the tail cap on since you will need to take them out. depending on the maglite and AA width you may be able to or may have a lot of trouble or they may just not fit at all. if the AAs get stuck hopfully the mass of teh Dcells already in it can help get the AAs out.

So to summerize, you may find 4AAs don't fit so the only way to make them fit is to bore the body of the light.
 

moderator007

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That driver is what we refer to as the shining beam driver. Its a amc7135 based driver. I have used several and so have alot of other members. 4 Nimh's batteries should work better than 3 with that driver. With out have to worry about try to lesson the resistance in the connections or switch. 4 Alkalines may or may not work good, depends on voltage sag and current they can provide. The starting voltage of 4 alkalines would be 6v or higher but voltage sag under load may bring that way down. I have never tested a D alkaline to see how well it performs at high currents but have read several other peoples comments stating that they do not work good at high currents.
 

LivingDaylight

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Thanks! I am going to try it out and see what happens. If I'm not happy with the results I can just try a different mod.

Thanks to everyone for all your help!
 

LivingDaylight

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I don't have a Lux meter but I will probably be able to rig up something with my camera. Thanks for all the info!
 
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