letschat7
Flashlight Enthusiast
If Mag-Lite was a leap forward, what was Laser Products Surefire? I feel as if the 9P was what the MiniMag-lite should have been.
Maglite
- Thread starter Sjvalleydave
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The Mag Instruments company was making flashlights long before Maglite. When Kel-Lite couldn't keep up with demand ole Tony Maglica provided parts and pieces. When John Bianchi hired Don Keller to build flashlights, Don hired Tony to build the B-Lites.
At that point in history John Matthews was inventing a laser for pisols and inventing a process what we now call fiber optic cable.
Tony built a self cleaning switch while John used a camera battery for fuel. Tony sold millions of flashlights before John sold any. SureFire made it big through government contracts. Maglite made it big by becoming a household item in million upon millions of homes across planet earth.
SureFire eventually dethroned Maglite by using camera batteries for fuel. Yet when I ask my non flashaholic colleauges about SureFire they say "Sure what?" They know Streamlight and Maglite but very few to this day have even heard of SureFire.
At that point in history John Matthews was inventing a laser for pisols and inventing a process what we now call fiber optic cable.
Tony built a self cleaning switch while John used a camera battery for fuel. Tony sold millions of flashlights before John sold any. SureFire made it big through government contracts. Maglite made it big by becoming a household item in million upon millions of homes across planet earth.
SureFire eventually dethroned Maglite by using camera batteries for fuel. Yet when I ask my non flashaholic colleauges about SureFire they say "Sure what?" They know Streamlight and Maglite but very few to this day have even heard of SureFire.
letschat7
Flashlight Enthusiast
I don't know about that. Anyone that has read a gun magazine or spent anytime around firearms knows Surefire. I first encountered one in 2003 and had heard of them from ads long before that. That said you don't really care about them because they cost more than a Mag and it isn't until you use one that it made sense.
Wuthrich10
Newly Enlightened
How did the Maglite trade in program work?
Lets see, back when they were introduced
Minimag: fueled by batteries pretty much available anywhere
9p: fueled by hard to find, expensive batteries
Minimag: spare easy to replace bulb located in the tailcap
9P: expensive bulb module that often times melted the lens
Minimag: twisty switch up front could be used one handed
9p: push button twisty at the rear required 2 hands to operate.
Minimag: $13
9p: about $100
Minimag: introduced in 1984, available in sporting good stores, hardware stores, box stores and gas stations
9p: introduced nearly 10 years later, available in specialty stores on occasion, but mostly cop or gun stores in limited supply.
Minimag: copied by numerous large manufacturers like Brinkmann, Bright Star, Streamlight and lots of foreign companies
9p: copied by Pentagon
In terms of pure output the 9p is way brighter. But the minimag played a much much larger role in changing the flashlight industry than the 9p. It was said that at one point a minimag was purchsed every 36 seconds.
I'm not saying the minimag is better than a 9p. Just that it had much larger impact in its prime than the 9p ever did. The 6p on the other hand or those E lights..... different result. They resulted in dethroning Maglite. 4 or 5D bright but the size of a minimag.
Minimag: fueled by batteries pretty much available anywhere
9p: fueled by hard to find, expensive batteries
Minimag: spare easy to replace bulb located in the tailcap
9P: expensive bulb module that often times melted the lens
Minimag: twisty switch up front could be used one handed
9p: push button twisty at the rear required 2 hands to operate.
Minimag: $13
9p: about $100
Minimag: introduced in 1984, available in sporting good stores, hardware stores, box stores and gas stations
9p: introduced nearly 10 years later, available in specialty stores on occasion, but mostly cop or gun stores in limited supply.
Minimag: copied by numerous large manufacturers like Brinkmann, Bright Star, Streamlight and lots of foreign companies
9p: copied by Pentagon
In terms of pure output the 9p is way brighter. But the minimag played a much much larger role in changing the flashlight industry than the 9p. It was said that at one point a minimag was purchsed every 36 seconds.
I'm not saying the minimag is better than a 9p. Just that it had much larger impact in its prime than the 9p ever did. The 6p on the other hand or those E lights..... different result. They resulted in dethroning Maglite. 4 or 5D bright but the size of a minimag.
TnC_Products
Flashlight Enthusiast
The LED Mini Maglite Pro has come a long way. The 2xAA light now has two modes and produces 332 Lumens on high for 2 hr 30 min and Eco mode that has a 13hr runtime. Not too bad for an old Mini Maglite. I have bought and customized some for people.
I think Mag's relationship to history sometimes gets a little lost without context. Trying not to rehash previous posts but my thoughts:
When they first came out as police flashlights... They were an improvement in a crowded field. Their engineering/manufacturing quality was ahead of other brands. The design was fresh, rather than updating old ideas to fit a new metal pipe, and the machining was camera-store-quality instead of auto-parts-store. That's half the reason the police flashlight market collapsed by 1985 (the other half being Streamlight rechargeables.) Really, you lay out the guts of a disassembled Mag-Lite and it doesn't look anything like its early contemporaries.
After a few years of growing... Mag's bigger innovations were mass market sales, and expanding their product line downwards into a pocket size flashlights. More convenient and less expensive for the average Joe. At the time, unless you knew how to fly a Space Shuttle, the odds of having a high-tech penlight were slim to none. If there was a gap between Mag and previous police flashlight quality, there was a canyon between them and Eveready, Radio Shack, etc. This is where the company really took off and turned into what we know them as. My dad had a Mini-Mag in the 1980s I wasn't allowed to touch as a kid, while I had stuff like army crookneck flashlights with switches that'd never quite work right.
But then... They stagnated. I don't entirely blame them for this, since they were massively successful and the consumer market wasn't really moving. But they weren't ready for the 2000s and LEDs. Mag-Lite's catalog grew smaller from 1988-2006 instead of larger. They gave up on the police market other than the Magcharger they were still selling 25 years later, they never got into the tactical market, and their pocket lights were getting lapped by cheap LEDs. Mag's eventual re-entry in all those fields was rocky and took a long time to get competitive. People who joined CPF in the mid '00s will remember the nonstop Mag hate for being an outdated premium brand. Also for being extra litigious (which is a trademark holder's lot in life unfortunately.) In the flashlight nerd community it's taken a long time to recover from that period. Outside of CPF I think they just became "your dad's flashlight."
Today? Their new stuff has modern technology at least. I think they've carved out their space as "the modern traditional flashlight" for the time being, but I doubt they'll become a dominant player the way they used to. Streamlight has a stranglehold on police, everyone makes something more interesting than Mag's tactical lights, so they're left with the homeowner market again. Part of it was falling behind the curve, but the other part is now EVERYONE is selling some form of really cheap super-bright flashlight in every configuration you can imagine. Like, if someone whipped out a Surefire in 2005 they were the center of attention in a room full of people who'd never seen an LED flashlight that bright. Now, even if the quality isn't there, everyone has some 500 lumen thing they got off Amazon or Home Depot for $14.
Personally, I never was the biggest Mag fan despite my appreciation for their design. I did have a Mini-Mag I used a lot but that was about it. If they'd ditched the cam focus and gotten into LEDs earlier I'd be onboard today. I even wanted to like the ML25T but it really doesn't push my buttons.
Surefire was yet another leap forward out of many leaps starting 100 years before. And it was a shorter leap than you might think. So the Mini-Mag came out in 1984. Within five years you could buy a Laser Products "Sure-Fire 6", which was extremely Mini-Mag-like. Notice how Surefire coming on the scene (not even the first CR123 light, just the first good one) only a few years later didn't exactly put Mag out of business. The design was too niche and too expensive, and Surefire's market focus was narrow.
Even by the late '90s when lithium batteries were more common and Surefire was popular in tactical/police use they still weren't a consumer flashlight. Try telling someone in 1998 to buy a $95 flashlight that uses $7 camera batteries.
People I know who know about Surefire: Gun & gadget guys. People who know about Mag-Lite: Everyone else. Surefire has the same problem the police flashlight companies that came before Mag-Lite did. They were expensive products with a specific audience. In 1975 if you wanted a "nice" flashlight you had to buy it out of a catalog with a gun, a cop, or a cowboy on the cover--maybe all three. And it cost $18 instead of $2.50. Surefire never really made the transition to widespread appeal, although I feel like inexpensive G2s were starting to make inroads in sporting goods stores in the 2000s.
When they first came out as police flashlights... They were an improvement in a crowded field. Their engineering/manufacturing quality was ahead of other brands. The design was fresh, rather than updating old ideas to fit a new metal pipe, and the machining was camera-store-quality instead of auto-parts-store. That's half the reason the police flashlight market collapsed by 1985 (the other half being Streamlight rechargeables.) Really, you lay out the guts of a disassembled Mag-Lite and it doesn't look anything like its early contemporaries.
After a few years of growing... Mag's bigger innovations were mass market sales, and expanding their product line downwards into a pocket size flashlights. More convenient and less expensive for the average Joe. At the time, unless you knew how to fly a Space Shuttle, the odds of having a high-tech penlight were slim to none. If there was a gap between Mag and previous police flashlight quality, there was a canyon between them and Eveready, Radio Shack, etc. This is where the company really took off and turned into what we know them as. My dad had a Mini-Mag in the 1980s I wasn't allowed to touch as a kid, while I had stuff like army crookneck flashlights with switches that'd never quite work right.
But then... They stagnated. I don't entirely blame them for this, since they were massively successful and the consumer market wasn't really moving. But they weren't ready for the 2000s and LEDs. Mag-Lite's catalog grew smaller from 1988-2006 instead of larger. They gave up on the police market other than the Magcharger they were still selling 25 years later, they never got into the tactical market, and their pocket lights were getting lapped by cheap LEDs. Mag's eventual re-entry in all those fields was rocky and took a long time to get competitive. People who joined CPF in the mid '00s will remember the nonstop Mag hate for being an outdated premium brand. Also for being extra litigious (which is a trademark holder's lot in life unfortunately.) In the flashlight nerd community it's taken a long time to recover from that period. Outside of CPF I think they just became "your dad's flashlight."
Today? Their new stuff has modern technology at least. I think they've carved out their space as "the modern traditional flashlight" for the time being, but I doubt they'll become a dominant player the way they used to. Streamlight has a stranglehold on police, everyone makes something more interesting than Mag's tactical lights, so they're left with the homeowner market again. Part of it was falling behind the curve, but the other part is now EVERYONE is selling some form of really cheap super-bright flashlight in every configuration you can imagine. Like, if someone whipped out a Surefire in 2005 they were the center of attention in a room full of people who'd never seen an LED flashlight that bright. Now, even if the quality isn't there, everyone has some 500 lumen thing they got off Amazon or Home Depot for $14.
Personally, I never was the biggest Mag fan despite my appreciation for their design. I did have a Mini-Mag I used a lot but that was about it. If they'd ditched the cam focus and gotten into LEDs earlier I'd be onboard today. I even wanted to like the ML25T but it really doesn't push my buttons.
Surefire was yet another leap forward out of many leaps starting 100 years before. And it was a shorter leap than you might think. So the Mini-Mag came out in 1984. Within five years you could buy a Laser Products "Sure-Fire 6", which was extremely Mini-Mag-like. Notice how Surefire coming on the scene (not even the first CR123 light, just the first good one) only a few years later didn't exactly put Mag out of business. The design was too niche and too expensive, and Surefire's market focus was narrow.
Even by the late '90s when lithium batteries were more common and Surefire was popular in tactical/police use they still weren't a consumer flashlight. Try telling someone in 1998 to buy a $95 flashlight that uses $7 camera batteries.
People I know who know about Surefire: Gun & gadget guys. People who know about Mag-Lite: Everyone else. Surefire has the same problem the police flashlight companies that came before Mag-Lite did. They were expensive products with a specific audience. In 1975 if you wanted a "nice" flashlight you had to buy it out of a catalog with a gun, a cop, or a cowboy on the cover--maybe all three. And it cost $18 instead of $2.50. Surefire never really made the transition to widespread appeal, although I feel like inexpensive G2s were starting to make inroads in sporting goods stores in the 2000s.
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PK said he wanted to sell G2's at places like Wal Mart. He was over ruled by the boss. The boss wanted the SureFire name to be kept out of the mass market but remain a special breed of flashlight.
Well put sir!!!
I think one approach from Tony Maglica and Dr John Matthews was from their past.
Tony began making flashlights for everybody on planet earth after being raised in financially strapped circumstances. Being an imigrant who once wasn't sure where his next meal came from led to some pretty conservative moves along the way. Moves that later caused loss of his market share.
When Dr Matthews started out making flashlights he had a good income from selling his laser patent to the US government. He was not concerned about revenue so he could focus on a niche market.
Tony needed to be profitable from the outset. Dr Matthews did not. Both had to deal with Streamlight as a fierce competitor.
I'll say kudos to both who have stuck with building their products in America. Both have also elected to take the hard route and remain in California and deal with their massive regulations.
alpg88
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2005
- Messages
- 5,370
Maglites are ok, the worst thing about them is they run on alkaleaks, i too had several lights ruined by leaks, some i fixed, some i could not. I too tought wrapping cells in wax paper would solve an issue, while it would somewhat protect from electrolyte sticking to tube walls, when batteries left to leak long enough they swell, and removing them isn't any easier with a wax paper around them,
I run all of my AA/AAA Mags on eneloops or energize ultimate lithiums and all of my C/D cell Mags on protected Li-ions - leaky alkaline problem solved.
M@elstrom
Flashlight Enthusiast
A P7 Modded Maglite 3D (NiMH D cells) is still my go to bump-in-the-night/entry light, nothing wrong with a Maglite and they can double as a half decent impromptu Patrol spotlight/searchlight 👍
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2006
- Messages
- 1,151
And who modded this 3D setup? Icarus or someone else?
letschat7
Flashlight Enthusiast
Since I commented first in this thread I only had a few Maglites but had owned many over the decades. Now I have 18 of them with another ten on the way direct from Mag.
In getting a significant amount of flashlights and trying them out side by side I'd like to think I'm a Mag user or even a Led Lenser user because I like them the most but it really turns out I use Streamlight the most and I have a lot of objections with how they run their company. Only they have a very broad range of designs, they have been making them for decades, collectors haven't ruined the prices on new stuff, and most importantly they have a lot of holster options.
A light is useless if it isn't with you when you need it and I can most easily carry Streamlight. Just try to find a belt pouch for Surefire 9P, most are very unsatisfactory. Smaller Maglites are carryable but the long C/D models are impractical. I feel sorry for LEOs that had to carry them after taking one hiking using the belt ring.
Maglite has new designs which I plan to try out but really they just seem like around the house or in the vehicle lights. Lenser seems to be beating them there with more practical designs and more rechargable lights, nevermind that they are significantly brighter too. Mag needs something to take on the X21R.
In getting a significant amount of flashlights and trying them out side by side I'd like to think I'm a Mag user or even a Led Lenser user because I like them the most but it really turns out I use Streamlight the most and I have a lot of objections with how they run their company. Only they have a very broad range of designs, they have been making them for decades, collectors haven't ruined the prices on new stuff, and most importantly they have a lot of holster options.
A light is useless if it isn't with you when you need it and I can most easily carry Streamlight. Just try to find a belt pouch for Surefire 9P, most are very unsatisfactory. Smaller Maglites are carryable but the long C/D models are impractical. I feel sorry for LEOs that had to carry them after taking one hiking using the belt ring.
Maglite has new designs which I plan to try out but really they just seem like around the house or in the vehicle lights. Lenser seems to be beating them there with more practical designs and more rechargable lights, nevermind that they are significantly brighter too. Mag needs something to take on the X21R.
M@elstrom
Flashlight Enthusiast
I have no issue carrying the longer Maglite torches, you keep them in the door pocket of the vehicle and put it on your duty belt when exiting the vehicle, placement of the loop hanger is paramount because it will swing...
YMMV
I built it back in 2009/2010 when Mag Mod parts were in ample supply here on CPF, online (places like Kai Domain etc.) and Maglite hosts where on sale for $20 in local Australian Supermarkets.
SSC P7 DSWOI emitter
h22a heatsink
5 mode 2.8A driver
Mineral glass lens
NiMH D cells
I remember as a kid those "rich people" down the street had a black alluminum flashlight that you didn't have to smack to your palm to get full output. Kel-Lite's. Then one day "we had one".
My dad built a garage he said "someday will have lights", so if he sent me on an errand to get something out of it after dark meant I got to use his 3D Kel Lite (then later a Maglite). 😎. My mom had a 4C Maglite as well. Yup, we were now the cool kids on our block. Both mom and dad had a Maglite.
When I first discovered LED lights had gotten pretty bright I had acquired smaller lights but when I saw Maglite were still US made soon after grabbed a 2D from a box store. They're called "classic" now because of the ML series. But the 3D classic is still a really good flashlight for general uses.
I've never been much of a fan of the LED minimag but that 330 some lumen AA model does raise a smile on the occsions I use it. I'd like to see them resume making a 4C model but don't hold out hope for that. The grenade grip 3C is a potent little number that lights up an area pretty well. But I really the shorty ML150.
I'd also like to see a 1AA Solitaire and an ML series interface that starts on eco, but again I don't hold out hope for that.
My dad built a garage he said "someday will have lights", so if he sent me on an errand to get something out of it after dark meant I got to use his 3D Kel Lite (then later a Maglite). 😎. My mom had a 4C Maglite as well. Yup, we were now the cool kids on our block. Both mom and dad had a Maglite.
When I first discovered LED lights had gotten pretty bright I had acquired smaller lights but when I saw Maglite were still US made soon after grabbed a 2D from a box store. They're called "classic" now because of the ML series. But the 3D classic is still a really good flashlight for general uses.
I've never been much of a fan of the LED minimag but that 330 some lumen AA model does raise a smile on the occsions I use it. I'd like to see them resume making a 4C model but don't hold out hope for that. The grenade grip 3C is a potent little number that lights up an area pretty well. But I really the shorty ML150.
I'd also like to see a 1AA Solitaire and an ML series interface that starts on eco, but again I don't hold out hope for that.
IMA SOL MAN
Flashlight Enthusiast
@letschat7 First, let me congratulate you on soon owning so many fine made in USA Maglites. That is helping to make America great again. We all need to support our nation by giving our own citizens our business, instead of financing our enemies around the world.
Second, let's recognize that Maglite is following the flashlight market. Think of a bell curve, and the top of the curve as the mass consumer market. Now the extreme right end of the curve, at the bottom, is the few individuals on the cutting edge of flashlight technology, i.e. the members of this forum. I doubt Maglite will ever be at that extreme right end of the bell curve with their products, that isn't where the most money is. Now, Maglite could spend a lot of money and come out with a cutting edge technology product, but they would likely lose money if the mass consumer market wasn't there yet. And they aren't there yet--look at how many alkaleaks are still being purchased! I would say that most consumers aren't in the market for an HID or LEP flamethrower or other high end light. When they are, I imagine Maglight will bring them out, and the price for them will come down due to economy of scale. Yes, Maglite is slow and conservative in its product development, but I think they were letting others spend the money on R&D and market testing before they got into the LED market.
So they are the household flashlight in the kitchen drawer, on the nightstand and in the glove box--that's "okay", because that is where the majority of the consumer market is, not with us--most people are muggles, as we call them--we are the flashlight nerds, the people who have expensive flashlights, who don't depend on the cell phone light. We are, so to say, Marvel Mutants. Our special power is to produce blazing daylight in the dark places. Be at peace, and enjoy your special power.
^^ bravo, well said 
letschat7
Flashlight Enthusiast
I wouldn't make that many assumptions. While in my day to day life I happen to be one of those enemies. Since 2015 I was under some Investigation group's radar for 'joining, funding, or supporting' this new nation that was in the middle east and africa. Well I kept sympathising openly and at some point was custody where due to my security rating I was kept with some real enemies. Making friends with one from that group got me designated too. I'm doing good to be out and free and engaging in this hobby.
The gov let me out early because of programming, no matter that the content was against this country, gave my lights and NVG back, and allow me to access Taliban news reports.
As for MAGA everyone forgets how many things were made in USA under Obama. Dewalt, Apple, Element, store brands of Walmart, Carhartt, New Balance, and others started US production which created jobs and made things better.
Back to the lights I feel we should support manufacturers in countries that pay a decent wage. It is nice to have things built to standards with oversight that it isn't a dangerous product.
While a lot hate on Mag I bet they would be more upset if one day they closed their factory. Maybe in order to keep theirselves alive they decided to build their lights in China. I think we should be a bit more supportive now than wait for them to fail. Sure they are limited in design but who isn't nowadays. They don't have Keller anymore and at this point anything to radically different just wouldn't be mag. I ordered a CR123 light from them that seems more like a Surefire than anything. i don't think they offer anything that I really need but I can gift these lights or use them as loaners. Every nonflashaholic loves a Mag.....
I know they have oversees sales as they show up on all sorts of light selling sites in AU, GB, NL, DE, BE, and more but for the money they cost the Chinese have them beat. Fenix and Nitecore are sold on the same sites with more value for less. Things like ITAR make it very difficult to sell US lights abroad.
Mag isn't the only one that need sales though. Someone compared flashlight companies to staving artists. I liked Arc back in the day and was gifted a few. I want one last year and a month ago I decide to get one but it is too late they are gone for good. Tektite comes to mind. The guy running it is a flashaholic that does a lot of things right but no one seems to buy one nowadays. Or Fulton they made the moonlight and are flogging these 1940s design lights that the military don't use anymore. How long will they stay alive? Inflation is making the economy rough.
For the Euros reading don't forget to support EU manufacturers such as Lupine, Petzl, Exposure, and the like. They are seemingly the last brands talked about on the world's premier flashlight forum. I read threads from 2003 or 2012 never current stuff when doing my research.
Oh, and one last thought, I've been buying most of my Mags from the Bay. Some for insane prices, some even from the 80s, always N.O.S. sorta making up for not having them at other times in my life. These kinds of purchases don't count. Buying used doesn't count either, not even if its a Bush presidential or gold plated Brass new in box. Skip Amazon even. Go buy factory direct or from a real dealer. These purchases count. I found a guy down south that had such good customer service and new his Mags that I turned a $25 purchase into a $100 purchase. The right purchases help flashaholics such as ourselves and keep flashlight companies in business.
Best Regards
Letschat7
The gov let me out early because of programming, no matter that the content was against this country, gave my lights and NVG back, and allow me to access Taliban news reports.
As for MAGA everyone forgets how many things were made in USA under Obama. Dewalt, Apple, Element, store brands of Walmart, Carhartt, New Balance, and others started US production which created jobs and made things better.
Back to the lights I feel we should support manufacturers in countries that pay a decent wage. It is nice to have things built to standards with oversight that it isn't a dangerous product.
While a lot hate on Mag I bet they would be more upset if one day they closed their factory. Maybe in order to keep theirselves alive they decided to build their lights in China. I think we should be a bit more supportive now than wait for them to fail. Sure they are limited in design but who isn't nowadays. They don't have Keller anymore and at this point anything to radically different just wouldn't be mag. I ordered a CR123 light from them that seems more like a Surefire than anything. i don't think they offer anything that I really need but I can gift these lights or use them as loaners. Every nonflashaholic loves a Mag.....
I know they have oversees sales as they show up on all sorts of light selling sites in AU, GB, NL, DE, BE, and more but for the money they cost the Chinese have them beat. Fenix and Nitecore are sold on the same sites with more value for less. Things like ITAR make it very difficult to sell US lights abroad.
Mag isn't the only one that need sales though. Someone compared flashlight companies to staving artists. I liked Arc back in the day and was gifted a few. I want one last year and a month ago I decide to get one but it is too late they are gone for good. Tektite comes to mind. The guy running it is a flashaholic that does a lot of things right but no one seems to buy one nowadays. Or Fulton they made the moonlight and are flogging these 1940s design lights that the military don't use anymore. How long will they stay alive? Inflation is making the economy rough.
For the Euros reading don't forget to support EU manufacturers such as Lupine, Petzl, Exposure, and the like. They are seemingly the last brands talked about on the world's premier flashlight forum. I read threads from 2003 or 2012 never current stuff when doing my research.
Oh, and one last thought, I've been buying most of my Mags from the Bay. Some for insane prices, some even from the 80s, always N.O.S. sorta making up for not having them at other times in my life. These kinds of purchases don't count. Buying used doesn't count either, not even if its a Bush presidential or gold plated Brass new in box. Skip Amazon even. Go buy factory direct or from a real dealer. These purchases count. I found a guy down south that had such good customer service and new his Mags that I turned a $25 purchase into a $100 purchase. The right purchases help flashaholics such as ourselves and keep flashlight companies in business.
Best Regards
Letschat7
turbodog
Flashaholic
The switch was and still is self-cleaning.
