Mistaken for a terrorist

[JOshooter]

Just a couple of comments...

1) About that story from the link, here's the quote under the photo if you haven't noticed it,

"High invisibility jackets... two images from Stephen Gill's Invisible photographs."


2) It sucks when a few people ruin it for the rest of us.

 

[theepdinker]

With respect to shifty's story.

The guard is just that a guard. Not a leo.
No more arrest authority in most places than any other citizen.

Most of us (I) would likely have acted differently.

Point of his story was the guard broke the law.
Break the law you got a problem.

Behave so as to attract attention & you're usually better off explaining yourself.
If you choose not to, things might get interesting.

Theepdinker

 

[brightnorm]

[ QUOTE ]
Sinjz said:
[ QUOTE ]
brightnorm said:
Look officer, (I called him that purposely even though he wasn't an LEO) I'm a member of a group that tests high-tech lights for the military and law enforcement community (I laid it on really thick) and I was testing this light to see how far it would throw and remain bright. Here- try it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious, how many LEO or security guard types do we have here that would have actually bought that? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it helped that I'm an older guy and naturally friendly and pretty upfront in a non-confrontational way. (It was different when I was younger but eventually one does grow up). If he had become really suspicious and confrontational I would have shown my custom made "CPF Card" which I always carry with me and which has smoothed things over on a couple of occasions when flying with many lights. If that and more calmness hadn't helped I would have suggested that we go to the police or his security office and deal with things there. Physical violence would have been an absolutey worst case scenario and unlikely in the extreme.

On two past occasions I have inadvertantly attracted the attention of LEOs when "vertically throwing" lights with some non-flashaholic colleagues in the same neighborhood, actually on the sidewalk in front of the entertainment center. You might be surprised at what a friendly, non- confrontational, pleasant manner can accomplish especially when it's genuine. On both occasions two officers were involved, and on both occasions within about 30 seconds good vibes were going between me and at least one of the officers.

Cops are smart and very perceptive, especially those who are a little older and have been around. They can smell trouble and its absence. On both occasions (as with the security guy) I offered them the lights to try (SF M6, MAG WA1160 and a stock Tigerlight FBOP). On the second occasion one officer tried the M6. He was absolutely blown away and kept grinning like a Cheshire cat. When I told him how much it cost he just shook his head.

The point is, all three incidents ended with smiles. That's how I like it and it's not a bad way to go through life, especially if you've had too much experience with another way.

The problem is, smiles or not it's becoming more and more difficult to justify my flashaholic activities, at least around here.

Brightnorm

 

[shifty646]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think you baited the security guard into using more drastic actions? Had you stopped at the door when the alarm went off you would not have had to use your superior ego to stop a man that was doing his job. He couldn't have predicted what you were going to do. You, on the other hand, knew what you were going to do.

I would have praised the poor security guard for doing his job and not running away. Instead you beat up the guy and got him fired.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I bait the guy? Maybe I did.
Does it justify his behaviour? No it doesn't.
He was not "doing his job" by following me outside and assaulting me.
I admit that my actions were not "nice" and I wasn't being a "model citizen". I was, however, acting fully within my rights. I did not steal, I had not broken any laws. The fact that the alarm went off does not in any sense constitute that the person walking through it stole anything or even mean that the person walking through it is in possession of an EAS tagged item. In other words, it means absolutely didly squat.
Reason I know is because I used to work as, and still on occassion do, as a plain-clothes floorwalker (aka store detective, loss prevention investigator, etc..). This is basically when you walk around the store as if you were just another shopper and observe people and catch shoplifters, credit card fraud, refund scams, etc. I have made many successful arrests and recoveries, and had absolutely zero false arrests. That is because of something called "competence". It's true that most of the suspects resist to different extents and pretend they are innocent and fight back. Difference is that when I go for the arrest, I KNOW the suspect stole. We pay absolutely zero attention to the EAS alarms, because we know they mean nothing and are never used in court because they are not recognized by any court system (They are simply psychological deterrents).
One of the things that really bothers me is incompetent people in the security industry, becuse they give us all a bad name. I work for what I think is a very peofessional firm, but when some ******* pulls a stupid stunt it ends up reflecting on all of us.
I know there are many firms out there with low standards and poor training, which makes for many incompetent guards. But if nothing is done about this, it will just continue to happen. This is why good QC is very important, especially in the security industry. They are entrusted with people's safety and security as well as the protection of high value assets. Wouldn't you want competent people doing that?

Point is: the guard was very incompetent, and he paid for it.

[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with Haveblue. How is the Guard suppose to know you're not stealing something. Even only hearing your side of the story, I don't see why the guard was even fired. He grabbed you by the shoulder because you ignored his command to stop several times. The alarm did go off afterall. It's his job to check that you're not stealing. Looks like you intentionally took this minor confrontation and made it into a big one.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ignored his command to stop? what gives him full control of my actions? He is in no position to tell anyone what to do. You have your rights, and if all it takes for you to give yours away is someone in a uniform telling you to "stop" then you're in trouble.
Me ignoring his "command" gave him absolutely no right to grab me. Maybe he could have tapped me in the shoulder to get my attention, then I may have been a little more understanding and co-operative.
It's his job to protect the client's property while working within the law. He was breaking it.
My intention was not to make a small thing into a big one. He could have easily avoided the outcome by not following me outside, not grabbing me, and not initiating a physical confrontation. That's at least 3 points at which he could have stopped and avoided his fate.
I got baited soo many times in every job (security, loss prevention, PI, heck even as a grocery clerk back in the day). And you know what? not once did I fall for the bait. Sure, I got into fights, but only when I was justified to do so. So many times I walked away from someone cussing at me, or someone even pushing me, or someone I thought was stealing but wasn't 100% sure, etc...
It all comes down to knowing your rights, knowing your place, and knowing the law.

I do not want this to inspire people to go out and be unruly and fight security guards. I just want people to understand that they have rights, and they shouldn't let anyone walk all over them.

Also, a little side note. When you are on private property (club, concert, etc..) security as well as the event employees have a certain amount of power they can excercise over you. If you fail to follow the property/event rules or cause any sort of disturbance of fail to follow instructions the event staff can ask you to leave right away and remove you by force if you refuse to comply. So don't start any crap while on private property!

 

[BlindedByTheLite]

Shifty, was what the security guard did seriously illegal? i thought that was a security guard's job. if he can't tackle you, then what's the point of a security guard? ANYONE could then shoplift by simply walking out thru the alarm, getting into their car, and leaving.

you not stopping when you knowingly set off the alarm surprises me since you have field experience with such things.

 

[markdi]

I have met many cops who are so full of them selves
my rights have been violated many times

cops are a nessary evil but I could live with out them.

 

[shifty646]

[ QUOTE ]
BlindedByTheLite said:
Shifty, was what the security guard did seriously illegal? i thought that was a security guard's job. if he can't tackle you, then what's the point of a security guard? ANYONE could then shoplift by simply walking out thru the alarm, getting into their car, and leaving.

you not stopping when you knowingly set off the alarm surprises me since you have field experience with such things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like i said before. A security guards job is to protect the client's property while working within the law. He broke it.
He cannot just tackle people whenever he likes, or when they do something that doesn't please him. Using force is only justified in the course of self defense, when it is so justified, and it must be determined reasonable (ie if i punch you, you can't shoot me in return). Reasonable force is also justified in order to complete an arrest, when it is so required. So if I inform a suspect he is under arrest for theft and he must come back with me, and he is fully co-operating, cuffing him would be excessive force (I may simply guide him by perhaps holding on to his arm).
Remember, the security guard does not have any more rights than a regular joe (LEO's do, however). So, no, he absolutely cannot tackle people out of the blue like that.
It cannot be justified as self defense, because I was not in the process of assaulting him, and it cannot be justified as reasonable force for arrest because he never informed me I was under arrest.

Also, I have not knowingly set off the alarm. The alarm went off for whatever reason (I have 2 phones, a pager, a pda, flashlights, and god knows what else on me), and I simply didn't stop for it becuase there is no reason to. Like I said before it is simply a psychological deterrant, absolutely no one has to feel obligated to stop.

Despite all those supposed limitation, shoplifters still get caught everyday at pretty high rates. If you walk into a protected store, your chance of getting arrested and charged is 50%-60%. And this is all done lawfully. This is where having highly trained and competent people pays off.

For this case with the security guard, the security company and the store can be held liable in court on civil charges and would end up paying damages of around $15,000 for this incident. I chose not to pursue any civil or criminal charges in this case. That's because I'm an evil guy with a vendetta /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

Remember - INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY! - isn't that the point of a free society??

 

[TrueBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
shifty646 said:

snip...Using force is only justified in the course of self defense, when it is so justified, and it must be determined reasonable (ie if i punch you, you can't shoot me in return).

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the law work both ways? He put his hand on you and you viciously beat the jello out of him, got him in trouble and got him fired? How many people say that is an reasonable reaction for someone that simply put their hand on you? The security guard is required to do his job or get fired or not do his job then get fired. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

You better quit while you are ahead.

 

[IlluminatingBikr]

Shifty646,

If you were that security guard, what would you have done differently?

According to what you are saying, I'm not sure if he could have legally stopped you from exiting the store and leaving the premises just because the alarm went off. Does he have to actually witness you shoplifitng?

I'm not saying what you did is wrong. Like how you want us to know our rights, I'm curious to know what the security guard's rights are as well.

 

[Lightraven]

I'm not an expert on the law, but here is what I believe.

Generally, only sworn law enforcement officers may put their hands on another person, except in defense. There are exceptions, but security guards are not a special class under the law. They are agents of the property owner and they have all the arrest authority of any citizen--but no more.

A security guard can no more detain me than a gas station clerk can. Even sworn LEOs have limits to their authority to do this.

When I was a guard, I was ordered to "observe and report." That is what I did. I talked people into doing what I wanted. Now, when I arrest people, I use a very light touch and I have avoided the fights that my coworkers have.

 

[theepdinker]

haveblue,
You need to go back & reread to story.
He did not respond to the grasp from behind with an attack.
shifty responded to a frontal attack with like force in defense.

Theepdinker

 

[sotto]

Generally speaking, IMHO, encounters with law enforcement personnel are best avoided. Even if things go relatively well, your name and personal information can and probably will be taken down, and who knows how that information will be used in today's semi-hysterical climate. Information can (and in many cases probably will be) cross-checked with other sources. For example, how many folks here own firearms? That fact, combined with an otherwise relatively innocent report of "suspicious activity", could provide an excuse to make a respectable citizen's life miserable. And it's a lot safer than hassling real trouble-makers. Paranoid or not, it's a very good idea to avoid trouble if at all possible, now more than ever. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Lux Luthor]

Very good advice, sotto.

After I got searched near an airport, and detained for almost an hour by 4 cops, I stopped using my lights so indiscriminately. It looks suspicious to people because they don't understand flashoholism at all. If they see you using lights like norm described they think you're up to something - plain and simple.

I've had other incidents that I could go on and on about, but that airport incident is what finally made me change my ways. My advice to flashoholics is to think about the way you're using your lights, and how average people are going to perceive it. If you shine a light at someone's house, or at some industrial complex, they may very well think you're planning on committing a robbery. If they call the cops, the cops are going to interrogate you. If you're also unlucky enough to have something else suspicious about you, you may end up getting taken downtown. This could include something like a previous arrest, camo clothing, a scanner, multitool, or just some device not commonly used by people. And unfortunately these are probably things many flashoholics have on their person or in their car.

Now add to this the possibility that this happens near a place like a bus station, train station, ferry service, airport, military facility, etc., and you may simply not be able to explain your way out of your situation at all!

 

[shifty646]

[ QUOTE ]
haveblue said:
[ QUOTE ]
shifty646 said:

snip...Using force is only justified in the course of self defense, when it is so justified, and it must be determined reasonable (ie if i punch you, you can't shoot me in return).

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the law work both ways? He put his hand on you and you viciously beat the jello out of him, got him in trouble and got him fired? How many people say that is an reasonable reaction for someone that simply put their hand on you? The security guard is required to do his job or get fired or not do his job then get fired. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

You better quit while you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please re-read the story before making such conclusions and recommendations as to my future endeavours.

 

[shifty646]

[ QUOTE ]
IlluminatingBikr said:
Shifty646,

If you were that security guard, what would you have done differently?

According to what you are saying, I'm not sure if he could have legally stopped you from exiting the store and leaving the premises just because the alarm went off. Does he have to actually witness you shoplifitng?

I'm not saying what you did is wrong. Like how you want us to know our rights, I'm curious to know what the security guard's rights are as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

As the security guard, in the event the alarm goes off and there is absolutely no evidence that a theft actually occured, I would take what is called the "customer service approach" (this is part of standard training for retail loss prevention). I would address the customer in a polite way with a smile "Excuse me, Sir/Miss. I think one of the employees forgot to disable a tag on your purchase." This would compell the customer to return to a counter and have the employee look through his purchase to disable the tag, accomplishing a legal search to determine that everything had been paid for and the tags have been disabled (compliance rate is 95%).
In the event a purchase was not made and the alarm went off, I would again politely address the customer "Excuse me Sir/Miss. Something in you bag/purse must have set off the alarm." This compells the customer to voluntarily present their bag/purse for inspection (it is a common trait for people to attempt and prove innocence even when not required). Compliance rate for this case is ~80%. Customers that choose to ignore or respond "Probably my pager/phone/pda" cannot be further pursued. Often these methods prevent theft via the "Oh my! I forgot to pay for this!" routine.

If I was the security guard in my incident, I would have simply let the customer (me) go. After attempting to address the customer and being ignored, I would simply let it go.
The security guard had no right to detain me based on the alarm going off.
In order for a citizen to arrest, they must witness the crime being comitted. Only LEO's can arrest on "resonalbe grounds" (suspicion).

Also, a little factoid. If you see a guy commit a crime and tell an officer "I just saw that guy steal, arrest him." They will arrest him, but on your behalf. So it is as if you made the arrest yourself, and you are liable in court.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Brightnorm, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As chairman of

The Citizens Group Against Unsightly Building Façade

I hear by make you an honorary member and appoint you to duty in Manhattan.

Our task is to insure that the Pigeons in the city are being fed the proper foods. Everyone knows that all of the façade's in the city are covered with pigeon dung. It is our job to insure that this unsightly mess does not become more unsightly. There have been a lot of reports of pigeons being fed food tainted with food coloring in an effort to deface private property. This past Christmas saw red and green "dribbles" everywhere.

The EPA is considering legislation to set (and enforce) limits to curb this "colorful" emission problem. The National Federation for the Preservation of Wild Life Color is also up in arms over this thinking that the birds feathers may suffer discoloration.

There are even rumors that terrorists may try to spread disease by covering the city in pigeon poop… /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Our mission is to keep a watchful eye on the buildings and to report anything suspicious.

Your familiarity with flashlights makes you well qualified for this duty. Often we find ourselves caught out after dark wondering if the color we see is caused by colored pigeon poop or just a reflection from a neon sign or the "improved" billboard lighting on a passing taxi. A light with good throw comes in handy to make a proper evaluation.

I will send you a membership card that has our mission statement on the back. I am sure the next time you are approached by security you can simply show them the membership card and

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif THEY WILL TAKE YOU DIRECTLY TO JAIL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

Tom

 

[brightnorm]

Tom,

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif

BN

 

[IlluminatingBikr]

shifty646,

Does that apply here in the United States?

 

[DarkLight]

Next time though shifty may end up in a coma. (moonlighting MMA type guy or something..)

Any situation that results in physical violence that could be avoided is stupidity. People are fragile and die easily sometimes.

 

[shifty646]

[ QUOTE ]
IlluminatingBikr said:
shifty646,

Does that apply hear in the United States?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really not sure about the particular laws in the US, as they vary from state to state. That's why it's important for you to research that and know the law.