More EV fires after salt water flooding

[RWT1405]

All truly frightening. Thank you for posting, especially that you're posting the experiences of someone who actually fights fires IRL, not in his dreams. Ironic of course that CO2 is the boogy man of the moment.

Yeah, it's a shame we don't have any actual Firefighters on this forum.....

 

[alpg88]

Sorry, I was talking about CO2 for firefighters for one car. Don't the portable fire extinguishers use CO2?

Not all of them, in fact CO2 are very small in numbers compared to dry chem.

Has there been anything that suggests a chain reaction?

Yes, absolutely, thermal runaway, cells ignite others cells next to them.

Most parking garages aren't enclosed, they have openings to the exterior.

They actually are, come to a large city and look for yourself, in NYC probably 70% are underground, or inside a building, that pretty much definition of enclosed. Even open multilevel garages, not much different, fire spreads sideways. smoke fills the space, and make it impossible to see, or work without SCBA. not to mention heat compromises structural integrity of a building.

I think there is a lot of misinformation about lithium batteries going around.

You may think that, but real world fact show that concern is as real as it gets.

 

[alpg88]

Just stop with your flawed pro green agenda.

I would argue that the agenda is exact opposite of pro green, looking at impact it causes it is environmental destruction agenda. I will not believe for 1 second those who on top pushing it, did not predict, or know the consequences. it is not flawed, it is designed that way. They rely on these brainwashed foot soldiers to spread it, interesting thing about human psychology is that when you install a belief in a brain, no amount of facts and proof will change their minds. Look up ex kgb general interview from 1984 (what a coincidence, Orwell's book is also called 1984) he predicted what happens today step by step. as if he was looking into a crystal ball.

 

[mrfixitman]

I think you would argue that the moon was made of cheese if you were told to.....it's pretty obvious that the present power that drives EV's is in its infancy, and could be very dangerous if not assembled or treated correctly. There are a myriad of problems from charging, to disposal to fire risk and pollution due to production, which need to be sorted out prior to your utopian vision of motoring.
Oh and gasoline although a constituent of napalm, doesn't behave in remotely the same way. Just stop with your flawed pro green agenda.

I bring up facts. Not FUD. First word is fear. Batteries are not in their infancy. More like troubled teens. The switch to LiPO is happening fast. Assembly is user error. For instance I nicked the battery cover on an A123 26650. Dead short. I am now very careful to inspect salvageable cells. Used batteries are valuable. Disposal is last resort after a decade or more of use. Some Teslas have seen half a million miles on the original pack. My strategy is not flawed, I am living the dream.
What does Yoda say about fear?
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

 

[mrfixitman]

Not all of them, in fact CO2 are very small in numbers compared to dry chem.

Yes, absolutely, thermal runaway, cells ignite others cells next to them.

They actually are, come to a large city and look for yourself, in NYC probably 70% are underground, or inside a building, that pretty much definition of enclosed. Even open multilevel garages, not much different, fire spreads sideways. smoke fills the space, and make it impossible to see, or work without SCBA. not to mention heat compromises structural integrity of a building.

You may think that, but real world fact show that concern is as real as it gets.

FUD.

 

[alpg88]

 

[tonkem]

Easy for who. It's like napalm. With batteries they give you a warning. Australia's Department of Defense researched the same question and found that "there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal combustion engine cars." That's 83 times more likely that gas will burn.

The issues with EV's has been they seem to take your house with them, as they have caught fire for no apparent reason while owners are not using the car, and it is parked in the garage. And they are extremely toxic fires that are difficult to put out. A fire dept that is equipped to handle an EV fire had to cover it with a fire blanket, and take it to the dump, and keep the blanket over it, until there was no more smoke.

 

[alpg88]

It is not unusual for a wrecked EV to catch on fire days latter at a body shop, or a junk yard.

 

[orbital]

+

Good luck getting it serviced at the side of the road, NO service crews will touch them because of the voltage.

I'd go into a true long story, but I just don't want to type that much

 

[Monocrom]

From that one story where the guy on CPF had a battery venting issue and had problems from breathing it in, I thought he said that rechargeable batteries didn't have the toxic gas issues that primary batteries have.

No, you are mistaken. Whether it's primary or rechargables, lithium-ion batteries give off highly toxic fumes when they explode.

 

[divine]

No, you are mistaken. Whether it's primary or rechargables, lithium-ion batteries give off highly toxic fumes when they explode.

Interesting, back when "safe chemistry" first came out, I asked AW what happens when they short out. He said they get very hot, the wrapper will melt and it will go until it is discharged.

People seem to talk about lithium with cobalt and lithium without cobalt.

When you aren't talking about EVs, there's a lot of buzz about LFP, which I know as LifePO4. They give something like 7,000 charge cycles, 20 years of life. I wonder how many miles that would work out to.

 

[alpg88]

LFP also burn, they maybe safer when shorted, but if damaged, they burn same way.

What if this bus was not a parked empty bus, but full of people driving at 40kph, there would not be any time to get out. Such fast, intense fire would never happen to a gas, or especially a diesel bus

 

[divine]

Not all of them, in fact CO2 are very small in numbers compared to dry chem.

Yes, absolutely, thermal runaway, cells ignite others cells next to them.

They actually are, come to a large city and look for yourself, in NYC probably 70% are underground, or inside a building, that pretty much definition of enclosed. Even open multilevel garages, not much different, fire spreads sideways. smoke fills the space, and make it impossible to see, or work without SCBA. not to mention heat compromises structural integrity of a building.

You may think that, but real world fact show that concern is as real as it gets.

I guess my follow-up question would be, does dry chemical fire suppression conduct electricity like water does?

I know that about batteries, but I was talking about a parking garage with 1,000 vehicles. Has there been a case where 1 vehicle fire has caused damage to more than the vehicles next to it.

I don't know about you, but when I read the news, what is said in the meat and potatoes is almost never what the title of the article says. Just like this thread, EVs who come into contact with salt water can be very dangerous. Is this a concern for 0.1% of EVs? Probably a lot less. I live across the street from salt water, a 5 minute walk, but I know in the past 20 years, that water hasn't been up to my parking lot.

 

[divine]

LFP also burn, they maybe safer when shorted, but if damaged, they burn same way.

What if this bus was not a parked empty bus, but full of people driving at 40kph, there would not be any time to get out. Such fast, intense fire would never happen to a gas, or especially a diesel bus

You would think it would be common sense that you shouldn't park EVs next to each other. Most EV charging stations aren't setup that way. I wonder how far apart they need to be to stop them from catching like that.

I'll probably start parking one space away from EVs when I can.

Your case of "what if this bus was not parked", you would think that the driver would notice that the battery wasn't performing the way it should. I bet you that bus caught on fire because it was charging, not because it was just sitting there doing nothing.

 

[divine]

I should apologize ahead of time, I am an engineer, I get paid to think crazy thoughts.

 

[alpg88]

I had my sonata hybrid flooded completely by salt water, it did not burst into flames. My body shop would not touch ev where battery damage is suspected, even if it is minor.

 

[divine]

That's interesting. From what I read Hybrids are usually NiMH, so that makes sense that it didn't catch fire.

It also makes sense that a body shop wouldn't touch an EV, most mechanics don't know anything about electricity. I used to know someone who worked at a car stereo place, then changed jobs and went to work at a car shop. He was their "electrician".

 

[alpg88]

Mine had LG li polymer battery 270v

 

[divine]

Interesting.

Have you ever watched those videos on youtube where they have someone looking at the design of an EV battery?

A lot of them have bus bars.
It's probably impossible to stop water from touching any of these terminals without wrapping the entire battery pack. Maybe you could wrap the strings and minimize contact.
You probably cannot enclose these batteries because they would need to "breathe".

I would be interested to see if anyone makes a battery enclosure that is sealed with a little bit of air space and has a way to give it some air in a controlled condition.

Basically the nature of what makes these batteries good under the normal operating condition (high voltage for greater potential, high current for more power output and faster charging, the highest energy density possible) makes them dangerous in less than ideal conditions.

Maybe the problem is the customers and the designers. Who would buy an EV with 200 miles of range when you can get one with 300 miles of range that will be 10 times more likely to explode? Basically the same thing with flashlights, everyone wants the highest output and care very little about everything else.

 

[mrfixitman]

Those are sound business decisions.