So ixnay on the onedray?
Mountain lion defense for a CA friend of mine
- Thread starter jtr1962
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:thinking: omit drone? :huh:
Apparently you missed my earlier, erudite post.
LOL !!!!!! yes, very scholarly.
yes, I did miss it. It's all making sense now though. :kiss:
EV_007
Enlightened
I've seen plenty of cat tracks, but never spotted a Mountain Lion itself. They are sneaky and if they want ya for dinner, they will. They are usually afraid of us and will go to great lengths to avoid us, unless it is injured or rabid.
As mentioned, they strike from behind and usually from above. Hiking in a group and avoiding feeding time is your best defense. Although threats from 2 legged creatures and stupidity is your worst enemy.
That being said, walking stick or pair of trekking poles and bear spray are probably most effective, non lethal and politically correct forms of defense out there on the trail.
As mentioned, they strike from behind and usually from above. Hiking in a group and avoiding feeding time is your best defense. Although threats from 2 legged creatures and stupidity is your worst enemy.
That being said, walking stick or pair of trekking poles and bear spray are probably most effective, non lethal and politically correct forms of defense out there on the trail.
EV_007
Enlightened
Even a dog is good to take with you as an early warning system. Cats are inherently afraid of dogs in general.
They can also alert you to rattlers and other creature out of sight.
They can also alert you to rattlers and other creature out of sight.
jzmtl
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think if you get jumped on you are screwed one way or the other. If I go hike where they are present I'd bring something like this to even the odds a bit. Not a folder because I doubt I can open one without dropping it under those circumstances.
Nice Spyderco Rock Salt! :thumbsup:
One gentleman who was senior in years was out hiking and sat down for a moment to rest under an overhang. He got back up and started to move when a big lion came from his left at a running pace and pounced on his back. After a minute or so of struggling the man remembered that he had a knife on his belt in a leather pouch. He unsnapped the pouch, removed and unfolded the old school, Buck Ranger style, folder and stabbed several times over his left shoulder with his right arm. Twice he punctured his own shoulder and didn't realize it because of the effects of adrenalin. At least one of the stabs stuck the lion in the neck which let go and died only a few yards away. The man did sustain some serious injuries but he walked back home himself. A very interesting story indeed since if I heard the set-up scenario without hearing the end story, I'd have guessed the old guy didn't stand a chance. Given that this fellow made it, I suspect you'd do as well or better, especially with your Spyderco.
mtbkndad
Flashlight Enthusiast
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- Jan 1, 2005
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When the forest is open, I regularly ride near where your friend plans on hiking.
The Angeles National Forest is officially closed indefinitely so your friend will need to be more concerned with Rangers then mountain lions.
A couple months ago I was riding my mountain unicycle down Brown mountain and a juvenile mountain lion was in the road about 60 feet in front of me for about 50 feet. On Tuesday evening we were in Arroyo Seco canyon and a lady and her two dogs ran into a mountain lion drinking water. It was not happy to see two dogs.
I just got finished with a night MTB ride with a group of friends in the Verdugo mountains which has mountain lions too. I ride there solo at night when people cannot go with me and have seen a mountain lion in those mountains.
Regarding what to do and current likelyhood of seeing one-
First of all there are mountain lions currently in the front non-burned portion of the mountains in front of Mount Wilson and with so much of the forest being burned the likelihood of running into one is higher then in pre fire times.
Second as long as there are deer around and plentiful your friend really does not have anything to worry about. Mountain lions are deer specialists and won't eat other things if they don't have to eat other things.
The forest service literature says-
The best defense against a mountain lion is a compressed air horn.
Also carry a walking stick or staff, not for fighting but for making your self look bigger as you yell and wave it around.
As a rule predators kill to eat and do not want do deal with things that are likely to put up a fight.
When I ride solo at night I have a very loud whistle, a Storm whistle that puts out over 130 decibels. Mountain lions have very sensitive ears and VERY LOUD sounds are excruciating to them.
Your friend needs to understand that mountain lions are ambush predators, it is not the mountain lions you see and hear that are a concern and if it is your time the ones you don't see will kill you before you have much chance to do anything physical with a knife unless you survive the initial attack and have a quick deploy knife that you are very proficient with in a kydex or other similar sheath. If you have to unsnap anything you will likely already be dead.
Once again as long as deer are plentiful I would not be too concerned. Rangers however may not be to happy so see somebody in a closed national forest.
Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:
The Angeles National Forest is officially closed indefinitely so your friend will need to be more concerned with Rangers then mountain lions.
A couple months ago I was riding my mountain unicycle down Brown mountain and a juvenile mountain lion was in the road about 60 feet in front of me for about 50 feet. On Tuesday evening we were in Arroyo Seco canyon and a lady and her two dogs ran into a mountain lion drinking water. It was not happy to see two dogs.
I just got finished with a night MTB ride with a group of friends in the Verdugo mountains which has mountain lions too. I ride there solo at night when people cannot go with me and have seen a mountain lion in those mountains.
Regarding what to do and current likelyhood of seeing one-
First of all there are mountain lions currently in the front non-burned portion of the mountains in front of Mount Wilson and with so much of the forest being burned the likelihood of running into one is higher then in pre fire times.
Second as long as there are deer around and plentiful your friend really does not have anything to worry about. Mountain lions are deer specialists and won't eat other things if they don't have to eat other things.
The forest service literature says-
The best defense against a mountain lion is a compressed air horn.
Also carry a walking stick or staff, not for fighting but for making your self look bigger as you yell and wave it around.
As a rule predators kill to eat and do not want do deal with things that are likely to put up a fight.
When I ride solo at night I have a very loud whistle, a Storm whistle that puts out over 130 decibels. Mountain lions have very sensitive ears and VERY LOUD sounds are excruciating to them.
Your friend needs to understand that mountain lions are ambush predators, it is not the mountain lions you see and hear that are a concern and if it is your time the ones you don't see will kill you before you have much chance to do anything physical with a knife unless you survive the initial attack and have a quick deploy knife that you are very proficient with in a kydex or other similar sheath. If you have to unsnap anything you will likely already be dead.
Once again as long as deer are plentiful I would not be too concerned. Rangers however may not be to happy so see somebody in a closed national forest.
Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:
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jzmtl
Flashlight Enthusiast
It's being insanely discounted right now, so if you like it now's the time to strike.
Again folks, it's fairly common that most people see the cat before it makes contact with them. Also, the life and death struggles are typically prolonged. Of all the documented cases I read, only one of the victims died quickly due to a broken neck. The important thing to see here is, if you're not carrying pepper spray or a firearm to hopefully stop the animal before it gets to you, you still have excellent chance if you have a knife with on you. If you have a partner with you any object will help, hiking pole, logs, rocks, even a writing pen forced into the animals eye. But, that's only if you have a partner. Alone, you're not going to be able to use these other items effectively because victims are usually pinned down.
1991
January. Scott Lancaster, 18, was killed while jogging just a few hundred yards from his high school in Idaho Springs, Colorado. The lion dragged the 130 pound boy 200 yards uphill before killing him, evidenced by the uprooted vegetation along the way. The lion was found feeding on his body three days later. This is the first death ever in Colorado from a lion attack. (MLCSP; Denver Post 5/1/98, B-01; SWCOA)
1995
Fall. Photographer Moses Street was jogging on a popular trail in Rocky Mountain National Park near Estes Park, CO, when he glanced over his shoulder and saw a cougar about to pounce on him. The cougar backed off when Street yelled and waved his arms. Street used a large tree branch to stop a second and third attack.
Street climbed a tree and had to keep using the branch to keep the lion from advancing up the tree. Park Rangers rescued him after Street's girlfriend alerted them. (Washington Post, 7/13/97, A01)
1998
25 May. Mary Jane Coder of Harlingen, Texas and her three daughters, ages 9, 8 and 6, saw a mountain lion on a large rock while they were hiking on the Pine Canyon Trail in Big Bend National Park, Texas. There are two published versions of what happened.
One account says that Ms. Coder tried to frighten the animal away by yelling, waving her arms and throwing rocks. The lion struck her in the left hand with its paw, and followed the family back down the trail until they reached an open area. Another account says that the lion charged Ms. Coder, and that Ms. Coder advanced toward the lion with a pocket knife. The lion backed off, but then slapped its paw on Ms. Coder hand before leaving.
The attack on Ms. Coder is the third documented mountain lion attack on humans in the park since 1984. (Abilene Reporter-News 5/31/98l 6/9/98)
Lions aren't always intimidated by numbers, yelling, or looking large.
1 August. 6-year-old Joey Wing of Basin, Montana, saw a young (2-3 years old) male lion as he played with five other children near the Swift Dam Campground west of Depuyer. The lion attacked him after he turned and ran. Joey received bites to the back of his skull and on his back, with lacerations from his throat to his ear, requiring 200 stitches. His mother Melissa Wing drove the cougar away. There were 50-60 adults at the campground.
The cat then approached within 15' of two men, one of whom was Kyle Sinclair, a Blackfeet tribal officer who was wearing his sidearm. Kyle fired several shots and wounded the cat. The lion was tracked later that day and then killed. (Idaho Post-Register, 8/4/98)
2000
24 January. Clarence Hall, a hunter working for the Canadian government to kill problem wildlife, was attacked by the cougar he was about to hunt. The cougar had attacked a dog at the home of Cecelia and Barry Mack on the Nuxalk Indian Reserve in British Columbia the previous night. While Clarence was waiting for the rest of his hunting party, without his rifle, he was checking out tracks on the nearby Tatsquan Creek. (He left his rifle in his car since he wasn't tracking and because he was in town.)
Clarence noticed the cougar under a tree only 40' away, and tried to get back to his car. Due perhaps to his retreating action, the cougar attacked him on his neck, which felt like "being struck with a baseball bat." The cougar threw him to his back, bit again and shook him. Clarence shouted for help, then placed his hand over the cougar's lower jaw, with his thumb, forefinger and index finger behind its bottom canine teeth, which released its grip on his neck. He described:
Clarence received over 100 stitches, and nearly lost his right hand, which fortunately has responded to therapy, leaving only some impairment.
Clarence Hall explains that the cougars in Bella Coola valley are starving, making them more prone to attack, because wolves have moved in and are depleting the deer population, the cougar's usual diet.
2001
8 February. Jon Nostdal, 52, was attacked by a cougar while riding his bicycle in the dark from Port Alice, BC to where his tugboat was moored on the west coast of Vancouver Island. He heard the repeated clicking sound of the cougar's nails on the highway just before he sensed the presence of the cougar attacking him from behind.
The cougar attacked Jon's neck and knocked him off the bike. The hood of Jon's coat prevented initial injury, but on the ground the cougar continued attacking his neck. Elliot Cole, 39, saw the struggle, stopped his truck, yelled at the cougar, then hit the cougar with a bag filled with heavy binders, both to no avail. Elliot then began punching the cougar in the head, and finally pinned the cougar to the ground with Jon's bike. Both ran to Elliot's vehicle.
Jon was treated for bite marks on his head and several lacerations to his face, and remained in the hospital through the next day.
It was believed that this cougar was hit by a car several days ago and injured.
Port Alice is about 370 kilometres northwest of Victoria, with a population of 1300 people.
Source: Vancouver Sun 2/10/01; Canada's Globe and Mail 2/9/01.
In the extended TV version of this account, the guy in the truck pulled up to within a few feet of the lion and victim, revving his engine and blowing the vehicle's horn to no avail.
List of California only cougar attacks
1991
January. Scott Lancaster, 18, was killed while jogging just a few hundred yards from his high school in Idaho Springs, Colorado. The lion dragged the 130 pound boy 200 yards uphill before killing him, evidenced by the uprooted vegetation along the way. The lion was found feeding on his body three days later. This is the first death ever in Colorado from a lion attack. (MLCSP; Denver Post 5/1/98, B-01; SWCOA)
1995
Fall. Photographer Moses Street was jogging on a popular trail in Rocky Mountain National Park near Estes Park, CO, when he glanced over his shoulder and saw a cougar about to pounce on him. The cougar backed off when Street yelled and waved his arms. Street used a large tree branch to stop a second and third attack.
Street climbed a tree and had to keep using the branch to keep the lion from advancing up the tree. Park Rangers rescued him after Street's girlfriend alerted them. (Washington Post, 7/13/97, A01)
1998
25 May. Mary Jane Coder of Harlingen, Texas and her three daughters, ages 9, 8 and 6, saw a mountain lion on a large rock while they were hiking on the Pine Canyon Trail in Big Bend National Park, Texas. There are two published versions of what happened.
One account says that Ms. Coder tried to frighten the animal away by yelling, waving her arms and throwing rocks. The lion struck her in the left hand with its paw, and followed the family back down the trail until they reached an open area. Another account says that the lion charged Ms. Coder, and that Ms. Coder advanced toward the lion with a pocket knife. The lion backed off, but then slapped its paw on Ms. Coder hand before leaving.
The attack on Ms. Coder is the third documented mountain lion attack on humans in the park since 1984. (Abilene Reporter-News 5/31/98l 6/9/98)
Lions aren't always intimidated by numbers, yelling, or looking large.
1 August. 6-year-old Joey Wing of Basin, Montana, saw a young (2-3 years old) male lion as he played with five other children near the Swift Dam Campground west of Depuyer. The lion attacked him after he turned and ran. Joey received bites to the back of his skull and on his back, with lacerations from his throat to his ear, requiring 200 stitches. His mother Melissa Wing drove the cougar away. There were 50-60 adults at the campground.
The cat then approached within 15' of two men, one of whom was Kyle Sinclair, a Blackfeet tribal officer who was wearing his sidearm. Kyle fired several shots and wounded the cat. The lion was tracked later that day and then killed. (Idaho Post-Register, 8/4/98)
2000
24 January. Clarence Hall, a hunter working for the Canadian government to kill problem wildlife, was attacked by the cougar he was about to hunt. The cougar had attacked a dog at the home of Cecelia and Barry Mack on the Nuxalk Indian Reserve in British Columbia the previous night. While Clarence was waiting for the rest of his hunting party, without his rifle, he was checking out tracks on the nearby Tatsquan Creek. (He left his rifle in his car since he wasn't tracking and because he was in town.)
Clarence noticed the cougar under a tree only 40' away, and tried to get back to his car. Due perhaps to his retreating action, the cougar attacked him on his neck, which felt like "being struck with a baseball bat." The cougar threw him to his back, bit again and shook him. Clarence shouted for help, then placed his hand over the cougar's lower jaw, with his thumb, forefinger and index finger behind its bottom canine teeth, which released its grip on his neck. He described:
Immediately, I envisioned the cougar ripping my belly open with its front claws. With my right hand, I pulled the cougar's head, neck and shoulder over my chest, rendering the front claws useless as I pinned the cougar's claws to my chest. I then instantly threw my left arm around the cougar's neck and shoulder.
Barry Mack then shot the cougar four times from only a foot away. When the cougar went limp, Clarence removed the cougar's teeth from Clarence's skull. Clarence received over 100 stitches, and nearly lost his right hand, which fortunately has responded to therapy, leaving only some impairment.
Clarence Hall explains that the cougars in Bella Coola valley are starving, making them more prone to attack, because wolves have moved in and are depleting the deer population, the cougar's usual diet.
2001
8 February. Jon Nostdal, 52, was attacked by a cougar while riding his bicycle in the dark from Port Alice, BC to where his tugboat was moored on the west coast of Vancouver Island. He heard the repeated clicking sound of the cougar's nails on the highway just before he sensed the presence of the cougar attacking him from behind.
The cougar attacked Jon's neck and knocked him off the bike. The hood of Jon's coat prevented initial injury, but on the ground the cougar continued attacking his neck. Elliot Cole, 39, saw the struggle, stopped his truck, yelled at the cougar, then hit the cougar with a bag filled with heavy binders, both to no avail. Elliot then began punching the cougar in the head, and finally pinned the cougar to the ground with Jon's bike. Both ran to Elliot's vehicle.
Jon was treated for bite marks on his head and several lacerations to his face, and remained in the hospital through the next day.
It was believed that this cougar was hit by a car several days ago and injured.
Port Alice is about 370 kilometres northwest of Victoria, with a population of 1300 people.
Source: Vancouver Sun 2/10/01; Canada's Globe and Mail 2/9/01.
In the extended TV version of this account, the guy in the truck pulled up to within a few feet of the lion and victim, revving his engine and blowing the vehicle's horn to no avail.
List of California only cougar attacks
thelightdude
Newly Enlightened
About 30 years ago I was invited to stand next to a fully grown tiger used for rental and movie purposes, in the back of a very large pet shop. I will never forget that day. I have a very healthy respect for all cats after that incident.
Just something to consider about other wild animals:
Bee stings are the largest killer of humans in the U.S. directly caused by animals. An allergic reaction to the venom is bee's kills 53 people per year. This number is increasing every year due to the aggressive African honey bee that is taking over in Texas.
Deer do not kill people directly, but auto accidents caused by deer kill 130 people per year. Since the deer did not directly kill the person, this is an auto related accidental death.
Mosquito's are widely regarded as the most deadly creature on the planet, killing an estimated 3 million people per year, but the mosquito is not the real killer. Malaria is a parasite carried by mosquito's. --- Of course, this isn't in the U.S.
Just something to consider about other wild animals:
Bee stings are the largest killer of humans in the U.S. directly caused by animals. An allergic reaction to the venom is bee's kills 53 people per year. This number is increasing every year due to the aggressive African honey bee that is taking over in Texas.
Deer do not kill people directly, but auto accidents caused by deer kill 130 people per year. Since the deer did not directly kill the person, this is an auto related accidental death.
Mosquito's are widely regarded as the most deadly creature on the planet, killing an estimated 3 million people per year, but the mosquito is not the real killer. Malaria is a parasite carried by mosquito's. --- Of course, this isn't in the U.S.
TedTheLed
Flashlight Enthusiast
Patriot, I read the accounts in your post and I don't get the message you suggest -- in the first one a person is killed with no mention of the victim having seen the lion first, though we may assume he was predated from behind, and in the neck..
in the 2nd account the cougar backs off when he is spotted first, and loses his advantage of surprise..
3rd account same thing; the victim ADVANCED on the cat, and the cat merely tried to defend itself; no attack or kill..
4th account, slightly different; a small child entices an attack by runnning away, but isn't killed, again the lion goes for the "base of the neck and back" as usual..the lion is killed when it passes near some armed adults, but it wasn't attacking, probably looking for the little kid...
..at this point I would surmise seeing the cat first is a big advantage against not being attacked, and not runnig away, and making noise and looking big are also effective deterrents...
--otherwise it's a silent unseen attack to the neck from behind..
I'll be wearing my spiked collar, maybe Rothrandir can tool me a titanium one..?
in the 2nd account the cougar backs off when he is spotted first, and loses his advantage of surprise..
3rd account same thing; the victim ADVANCED on the cat, and the cat merely tried to defend itself; no attack or kill..
4th account, slightly different; a small child entices an attack by runnning away, but isn't killed, again the lion goes for the "base of the neck and back" as usual..the lion is killed when it passes near some armed adults, but it wasn't attacking, probably looking for the little kid...
..at this point I would surmise seeing the cat first is a big advantage against not being attacked, and not runnig away, and making noise and looking big are also effective deterrents...
--otherwise it's a silent unseen attack to the neck from behind..
I'll be wearing my spiked collar, maybe Rothrandir can tool me a titanium one..?
mtbkndad
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
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- Messages
- 1,295
Mountain lions normally sleep in bushes during the day right next to the trails that deer will follow at night.
There was a radio tracking study done in So Cal. a few years ago and you would be SHOCKED to know how many people actually hike right by them and never know it.
Mountain lions are VERY efficient ambush predators when hunting to kill. Animals that are predators do at times, if they feel provoked, attack for reason other then hunting to kill.
What provokes and animal can be as varied as what may provoke a person. These attacks often are territorial or defensive or a person is traveling at the right speed and or doing the right things to trigger the cat's hunt reflect (All cats from 'house' to Tiger have a hunt reflex that can be triggered under the right circumstance, even if they are full.)
If a mountain lion REALLY wants you dead you will be and quick.
If a mountain lion is trying to prove a point to you, you may be lucky.
Since deer are a mountain lions choice food, fighting and resisting can be effective if the cat is trying to prove a point of some kind to you.
I will continue to ride in groups and solo.
My feeling is that if it is my time to go I am ready to meet my maker.
I would rather enjoy nature and be active and die being active then have a heart attack sitting on a Sofa.
Recently I rode a trail with a friend in an area that has LOTS of known mountain lions, but the 500 to 1000 foot drops were a little more concern to me.
Be as careful as you can and enjoy life to its fullest.
Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:
There was a radio tracking study done in So Cal. a few years ago and you would be SHOCKED to know how many people actually hike right by them and never know it.
Mountain lions are VERY efficient ambush predators when hunting to kill. Animals that are predators do at times, if they feel provoked, attack for reason other then hunting to kill.
What provokes and animal can be as varied as what may provoke a person. These attacks often are territorial or defensive or a person is traveling at the right speed and or doing the right things to trigger the cat's hunt reflect (All cats from 'house' to Tiger have a hunt reflex that can be triggered under the right circumstance, even if they are full.)
If a mountain lion REALLY wants you dead you will be and quick.
If a mountain lion is trying to prove a point to you, you may be lucky.
Since deer are a mountain lions choice food, fighting and resisting can be effective if the cat is trying to prove a point of some kind to you.
I will continue to ride in groups and solo.
My feeling is that if it is my time to go I am ready to meet my maker.
I would rather enjoy nature and be active and die being active then have a heart attack sitting on a Sofa.
Recently I rode a trail with a friend in an area that has LOTS of known mountain lions, but the 500 to 1000 foot drops were a little more concern to me.
Be as careful as you can and enjoy life to its fullest.
Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:
thelightdude
Newly Enlightened
My feeling is that if it is my time to go I am ready to meet my maker.
I would rather enjoy nature and be active and die being active then have a heart attack sitting on a Sofa.
You got that right.
TedTheLed
Flashlight Enthusiast
well, yeah.
but ya know what? living here in the Santa Monica Mountain recreational area -- when I step out of the house after sunset,
guess what I shine on all the hills, up and down, first thing, before going out to the shed to check the batteries?
Q: what color is a mountain lion's eyeshine?
but ya know what? living here in the Santa Monica Mountain recreational area -- when I step out of the house after sunset,
guess what I shine on all the hills, up and down, first thing, before going out to the shed to check the batteries?
Q: what color is a mountain lion's eyeshine?
mtbkndad
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
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- Messages
- 1,295
Green and The Santa Monica Mountain recreational area was one of the areas where the radio tracking study was done.
Just think, big cats regularly walking around at night behind the back yards of homes and sleeping unnoticed in bushes at the sides of VERY well traveled trails during the day. You know how well traveled the trails are in your area.
Last year I was doing a solo ride in the eastern part of the Verdugo Mountain range and came across a lady hiking that lives at the base of those mountains and she told me a mountain lion had taken down a big buck not far from her back yard just a few nights proir.
Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:
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Watch your six.. a lot.
Yes I know it's a cougar but still. Now if only I can have the same experience with their friendlier counter parts.
Little history for anyone interested. A motion sensor camera picked up a deer in Montana. Well, too bad the deer didn't see what the camera did.
Yes I know it's a cougar but still. Now if only I can have the same experience with their friendlier counter parts.
Little history for anyone interested. A motion sensor camera picked up a deer in Montana. Well, too bad the deer didn't see what the camera did.
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