Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise & other tooling

[PhotonFanatic]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

GROOVE 'N TURN® Insertable Face Grooving Tools

• Major diameters of .300", .750", 1.250" and 3"
• For Depths of Cut 2-1/2 to 3 times groove width
• Groove widths .004" - .150" in .001" increments
• Inserts can groove, turn/bore and generate profiles.
• Inserts can also be used for OD/ID grooving.

ThinBit isn't the only company making these.

You can also just grind your own bit.

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

I've had a 1/4" HSS tool in my box for over 30 years. I finally took it out and ground it down to as close to .063 as I could. I tried to grind some vertical taper to it but being so small, didn't do so well. I tired it carefully anyway for my original intention and got to about .075 depth before it snapped off. It was an educational experience!

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

OK, tried my best not to post this (Yield not to temptation ) but here's a deal I could not refuse. ThinBit runs a promo once a year during which you send them any old tool holder you have, dead or alive, any brand, and they discount the holder of your choice by 50%. Maximum of two holders sent in with one purchase order (easy to generate in Word). Promo is running now, not sure how much longer. Yes, I sent in two of mine that I dug out of the "this is too bad to use" pile.

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Sounds fantastic! Do you have a link or is it by email, paper flier or?

Found it.

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Isn't that cool Limit of two per order but no limit how many orders one person can place. Might be a good time to pick up some $10 holders on eBay as they are worth at least $50 off when traded in.

http://www.thinbit.com/literature/promotions.html

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Barry, somehow I missed your reference to Royal and Techniks collets. I've been looking at both today. Are the Techniks the better quality of the two or are they equal? Does the round ground I.D. surface of the Royal make a difference? (Looking at the ER-16 sizes)

About 10 days ago I ordered an ER-16 3mm Royal Precision collet for $19. Back ordered & was going to ship next week. This morning an eBay search found a Techniks Super Precision collet for $12.50 delivered Cancelled the Amazon order & put the 3mm collet in the shopping cart.

Been wanting to get a dedicated 1" ER-40 collet to use with the 1" ER-16 extension but the ETM's run about $36. Found a Techniks 1" on the same site for $17.95 delivered & got that one too. (Amazon also sells Techniks but through Travers Tool & that adds $8 shipping.) Great selection & excellent prices: http://stores.ebay.com/allindustrialtoolsupply

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Are the Techniks the better quality of the two or are they equal?

IMO everything made by Royal Products is world class. However ... both Royal & Techniks guarantee 6 microns (0.0002") TIR so neither one claims to be better than the other. Royal does state that each collet is inspected (aka 100% inspection) & Teckniks does not make this claim. Bottom line is that there is a small possibility of getting a non-spec collet from Teckniks.

OTOH the Teckniks collets run $12-$13 each & Royals pricing is twice as much. Techniks are surprisingly nice & dead accurate.

Does the round ground I.D. surface of the Royal make a difference? (Looking at the ER-16 sizes)

It pains me to break this news to Royal but all ultra precision & high precision collets have a ground ID

Royal is correct when they state:

All Royal ER Collets are available from stock in both inch and metric sizes. This is very important because it enables you to select a collet that has been ground to your precise cutting tool size.
Using a collet that is perfectly matched to the cutting tool diameter ensures that full surface contact is achieved, resulting in higher gripping force, better accuracy, less vibration, better surface finishes, and longer tool life.

Said in fewer & less confusing terms Use inch collets for inch tooling & metric collets for metric tooling. Is it possible to run a 3mm shank in a 1/8" collet ... if you are not concerned with accuracy or tool life it is possible. Last time I pulled that stunt a brand new end mill made three slots before the tips chipped off. Royal shows a terrible image to illustrate their point:

The only possible way to get flats inside a collet is either with a broach or an EDM & no manufacturer uses either method. A 3mm tool shank simply falls through a 1/8" collet (same applies to other metric tool + inch collet combinations). Royal then shows this image:

A more accurate statement is "Full surface contact because ALL inch collets (no matter which brand) are ground to exact inch sizes & ALL metric collets (no matter which brand) are ground to exact metric sizes". This applies to both standard precision (0.0005") and ultra precision (0.0002") collets.

This is profound ...

Use inch collets for inch tooling & metric collets for metric tooling.

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

As always, thanks for your very informative responses! Will the typical precision or ultra precision ER-16 collet accept and work well with the next size up and down (by 64ths) endmill or what is, if any the acceptable range up and down from it's stated size? Can collets be used with drill bits?

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Each collet you look at should have a range listed. If the shank size is within the range it should grip. Best grip is size on size (1/4" shank end mill + 1/4" collet, 6mm shank end mill + 6mm collet). You may or may not get acceptable performance with some combinations.

With a well matched shank & collet it's easy to mill, drill & even tap some materials.

This article offers a good explanation: http://www.remsales.com/home/resources/er_collet_conundrum.html

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

OK, now moving on to endmill sets. I've got cheapie Tin coated endmills from 1/16 to 3/4". For the lathe, there are Alum/non ferrous specific and steel specific inserts. For milling, there seems to be HSS and Carbide used for all metals? Assuming that a good carbide set can be used for all metals, who makes a Techniks/Royal (for collets) grade endmill set?

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

FWIW a set of end mills isn't as useful as a set of twist drills. Buy the size needed for each job and eventually you'll have a set (sort of).

Lately most of mine have come from Amazon or McMaster but eBay is always where the bargains are. Anything made in USA, Japan, Israel, Europe, etc. is nice tooling. I run mostly solid carbide but have some solid cobalt end mills for the more abusive jobs - long tool overhang, less than rigid setup, thin parts that vibrate, etc. Those jobs eat solid carbide tooling like candy but the cobalt suffers less. Roughers & rougher/finishers are really handy & much faster than finishers.

 

[PhotonFanatic]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

OK, now moving on to endmill sets. I've got cheapie Tin coated endmills from 1/16 to 3/4". For the lathe, there are Alum/non ferrous specific and steel specific inserts. For milling, there seems to be HSS and Carbide used for all metals? Assuming that a good carbide set can be used for all metals, who makes a Techniks/Royal (for collets) grade endmill set?

All of these brands have worked well for me: Guhring, OSG, Data Flute, Sandvik, Garr, Harvey Tool and MA Ford.

EBay is the way to go, check prices on Carbide Depot to get some rough values.

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

I find that most of the work I do is in Aluminum. If I go with carbide endmills as I need them, is uncoated or coated best? If coated, which one?

 

[PhotonFanatic]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Uncoated would work just fine for AL, even for Ti, although ALTiN coated is better for Ti.

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Uncoated would work just fine for AL, even for Ti, although ALTiN coated is better for Ti.

+1

Look for "high shear" or aluminum specific tools. Lots of choices today.

 

[stjohn]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Hi BVH,
beware once you start on the slippery slope of buying tools you will spend more on that than on torches! Ebay like some of the other guys said is a great source and you can pick up some excellent bargains but beware there are different grades of tungsten carbide. Try to go only for known high quality brands and talk to the seller - find out where they come from if you can. Don't let that put you off but do give it some consideration...

cheers, stjohn

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

In looking at the Alum specific, 3-flute high helix products, they want to run at 800 SFM give or take. No way am I going to be anywhere near that with a max RPM of 2250. With a POT mod, I can safely get up to 3,000 RPM without harming the bearings. But that puts me around 200 SFM with a .250 endmill.

So with this in-mind - How do the Alum specific endmills work at low SFM? (Iy tend to take light cuts, never hogging anything out, just sort of "trimming")

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

How do the Alum specific endmills work at low SFM? (Iy tend to take light cuts, never hogging anything out, just sort of "trimming")

In just a few words ... all end mills suck when run far outside the recommended speed & feed.

Not to say it's impossible, we've all done it. Biggest issue is that (in order to keep the chipload/tooth in an acceptable range) the feed has to be really really S L O W

If you plan to run the tiny ones in aluminum the high speed motor attachment will pay for itself. Without the high speed attachment the best option is a 4-flute rougher, highest spindle speed available, continuous air jet (or flood, mist, MQL, etc.) to avoid recutting chips, and a gentle hand on the feed wheel. Cobalt does better at tolerating abuse than solid carbide & a 4-flute cobalt rougher costs about half of carbide. On top of that it will last longer & keep more of its teeth when run super slow.

YMMV

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Repost

Second mill project was to machine a Little Machine 4-jaw chuck adapter to fit the new South Bend 6" rotary table. So it seemed appropriate to use the rotary table to do part of the job. Made new shouldered holes at 120 and 240 degrees and used the lathe to machine down the 30mm spindle boss to .688". .050" wall thickness left on the boss with a nice twist-in fit. A pic of the mill with work holding tools.

 

[wquiles]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

I see a HUGE problem with your setup :shakehead

It is too darn clean and neat - go cut more chips, pronto :devil:

Will