Random major color shift in HID bulb?

[Alaric Darconville]

Quoting me
"Science is not a democracy and truth is not a popularity contest."

Amen to that, and could you please beat that into Al Gores head as well.

Politics belong in the Underground.

 

[DM51]

Yes; please let's leave political points for discussion in the u/g, not here.

Also, there are a few very abrasive posts here, and some unnecessarily derogatory remarks. Referring to someone as a 20-something moron is not acceptable.

We're going to see people from time to time who ask the same old repetitive questions about bad purchase choices they have made, and then attempt to defend those items; but please bear in mind that they have come here because they are unsure about something. One hopes they want to learn from the experience on offer from members here, but I'm sure they would be happier to pick up knowledge if it was offered in a patient and helpful way, rather than to be told in effect that they are ignorant idiots. Insulting people is not the best way of offering educational information, and they are likely to go away smarting with indignation, and not return later to learn more.

 

[Hilldweller]

We can still make fun of 8000K bulbs though, right?

 

[DM51]

LOL yes, I suppose so - it must be an unpleasant experience to have something like that shine at you when you are driving.

But to be fair, the OP was talking about 4,300K...

 

[-Virgil-]

Does that mean that in the USA even a full retrofit (with 35 W HID bulbs) isn't actually legal because they weren't fitted in the factory?

No. There is no regulation or law saying that only factory-installed xenon headlamps are legal. Any headlamp that complies in full with FMVSS 108 is legal to use on any vehicle. A "full retrofit" (swapping non-original optics into a headlamp) isn't legal because the resultant headlamp assembly has not been put through (and passed) tests for compliance with all the applicable provisions of FMVSS 108. Photometry, colorimetry, vibration resistance, sealing against entry of water and dirt, etc. Colorimetry usually isn't a problem, but photometry often is because of glare and stray light bouncing off internal components of the headlamp placed and configured differently from those of the lamp from which the optic was taken, as well as high/low beam register/alignment issues (not a problem with BiXenon). Vibration resistance and water/dirt entry are usually big weak points of homemade headlamps.

 

[Disaster]

I must admit, I bought one of those "junk shop in China" kits to retrofit a into a HID refractor. I made my decision, knowing full well that I'd likely not get the same kind of reliability as OEM stuff...and possibly a bit less performance. Part of the reasoning was some people had 3 years on their kits and it was so dang cheap that if something went south I could cheaply replace it or if it performed badly I could just throw it in the trash and chalk it up to a learning experience.

The kit works pretty darn well...yielding a decent light field and proper cutoff.

Yes, I know it isn't legal, but no one else can tell and I don't expect it to cause more safety issues than the horribly weak stock halogens.

 

[-Virgil-]

Subjective assessment of headlight performance ("nobody else can tell") just isn't good enough. The cutoff sharpness and shape is only one aspect of beam performance, and it's not even the most important one, so "Yeah, they're good because the cutoff is still there" is not correct. "HID kits" in halogen-bulb headlamps (any kit, any headlamp, any vehicle) do not work safely or effectively, which is why they are illegal. Seehere for all the gory details.

 

[Disaster]

Subjective assessment of headlight performance ("nobody else can tell") just isn't good enough. The cutoff sharpness and shape is only one aspect of beam performance, and it's not even the most important one, so "Yeah, they're good because the cutoff is still there" is not correct. "HID kits" in halogen-bulb headlamps (any kit, any headlamp, any vehicle) do not work safely or effectively, which is why they are illegal. Seehere for all the gory details.

I'm glad I read that page of Daniel's. Made me decide not to do a retrofit in one of our cars. I'm using an HID kit in a OEM refractor HID headlight assembly...not a retrofit.

 

[madrabbitt]

Just so we're clear on one thing, and it should have been something you could clearly see in the picture, assuming you're familiar with what an OEM 99-04 grand cherokee looks like, this is NOT a 're-based bulb into OEM halogen-optic housings' conversion.

This is a retrofit, in which optics that meet DOT requirements (originally mounted on another vehicle) were placed into the headlight housing of this vehicle.

As best as i've understood this, and i've read it several times 108, section 5.8 states that replacement equipment must meet the same standards as original equipment.
Since the optics that i'm using met or exceeded section 7 requirements originally, then assuming i'm using components that match the original [i.e. i'm using D2R bulbs in optics designed for D2R bulbs] then the retrofit is legal, if once complete, then all other requirements as to minimum and maximum brightness, aim, and pattern are kept intact.

Thats the law at a federal level. And having worked at a upfitter that modifies headlight and other lamps on vehicles, i think they have a pretty good legal grasp on the federal and state codes.

Now, specific to my jurisdiction, this retrofit also complies to the very antiquated law of my state, which regulates just color and minimum brightness.

-Of course, since one of my bulbs is now purple, obviously it no longer meets legal requirements, and i'm subject to a ticket for defective equipment until the capusle(s) are replaced.

 

[madrabbitt]

Subjective assessment of headlight performance ("nobody else can tell") just isn't good enough. The cutoff sharpness and shape is only one aspect of beam performance, and it's not even the most important one, so "Yeah, they're good because the cutoff is still there" is not correct. "HID kits" in halogen-bulb headlamps (any kit, any headlamp, any vehicle) do not work safely or effectively, which is why they are illegal. Seehere for all the gory details.

And this is something that i've been saying for years.
In fact, its something that on another forum, i've been known as a headlight nazi because of my position.

Gas-discharge lamp capsules installed in optics designed around filament capsules are in violation of parts 5.8 and 7.1 of FMBSS section 108.

Thats not an opinion, or a point of view. Thats the law, plain and simple.


I've seen some conversions that are pretty close, and effective, and i've done a conversion that was close to the original, however, it was still unlawful if it was done on a vehicle that was driven on public roads... but that specific vehicle was neither registered or street legal, and only driven off-road.




And so we're all on the same page, language wise, its my opinion that
Conversion = bulb swap
Retrofit = optic swap

 

[madrabbitt]

Yet my own helpful response included the 35W maximum (perhaps I could have stressed *legal* maximum). Admittedly, I deliberately withheld my other judgements about your retrofit in my quest to point out a decidedly obvious troubleshooting step.

There is no wattage requirement for ballasts in section 108.
There are several wattage and voltage maximums listed section 108, section 7, however, they apply to specific types of bulb and bulb combination, and none of those specific requirements apply to gas-arc type bulbs.

Untill they re-write it to catch up with technology, the only restrictions faced by HID headlights are going to be restrictions as to color (range) and max brightness.

 

[-Virgil-]

There is no wattage requirement for ballasts in section 108.

Right, those requirements are in 49CFR564 with the bulb specs. Just because you don't find them where you think they might be, doesn't mean they don't exist. "Oh, the regulations are out of date and haven't caught up to the technology, so you're/I'm good to go" is a flimsy excuse used mainly by the vendors of equipment they know is illegal (and their customers). The regulations are not out of date. They specify ballast wattage, they specify HID (and halogen) bulb output, they specify beam photometry and every other aspect of headlamp design, construction, and performance. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or ignorant.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Untill they re-write it to catch up with technology, the only restrictions faced by HID headlights are going to be restrictions as to color (range) and max brightness.

I think the technology should catch up with what is written.

And homemade HID headlights, or replacements such that headlights from one vehicle are moved to a substantially different other vehicle, will have a host of problems all their own.

Raising or lowering the headlight position, and potentially the distance between them, can substantially alter the beam pattern-- and most likely in a way that is out of compliance with the law-- despite attempts to aim them properly.

 

[mrb]

... i'm using D2R bulbs in optics designed for D2R bulbs...

Just wondering why you have D2R not D2S burners? The pic of your Jeep looks like they have projector units, so would expect D2S burners??

Here's a close-up pic of some chinese burners I had, maybe normal but can see the electrodes look to be pitted after only a few start-up cycles.
Perhaps your colour-shifting burner has eaten one of the electrodes as already suggested.

I was initially attracted by their keen price but after seeing in person their dubious build quality and light focus issues, I obtained new Philips burners at about 4 times the price.
I hope you end up obtaining OEM burners too, you simply cannot expect good longevity with unknown burners/ballasts!
[Also please be very careful if you are igniting burners outside of their housing, the capsules will be at super-high internal pressure (~100 atmospheres?) and any knocks could be very bad indeed.]:huh:

As a slight side note, can any one confirm that these thin points in the path to the electrodes are some sort of weak point/fuse...??

 

[tay]

Brand new Philips 85122 bulbs are under $70/pair on ebay. Just go get those. There are a decent amount of people on HIDP running them with 55w ballasts, and not many problems reported. Lifespan goes down, sure, but I haven't heard of any catastrophic failures like those which occur with cheap kit bulbs.

As for ballasts, kinda shocking to hear that your OEM one went out. Maybe it was an issue of waterproofing? The longevity on OEM ballasts is great, but they do not like moisture at all.

Just pop in your old Philips bulb into the bad side, and deal with mis-matched bulbs for a week or two while you wait for the new Philips bulbs to come from ebay.

I know most people with projector retrofits have had no problems taking them through state inspections.

I've said it before, but I think the vibration resistance, water resistance, and dirt resistance of the retrofits is not as big of an issue as it is often made out to be. Headlight housings are just about always designed to be secured very well to the car, and to move as little as possible. Most projectors are mounted at where the bowl meets the lens holder, which is often pretty close to the center of mass of the projector. As long as you thoroughly test the mounting to make sure it doesn't vibrate, and as long as you re-seal the headlights well (preferably with OEM butyl headlight sealant), neither of those two things are serious issues. They're certainly one of the several concerns to address when retrofitting, but they're not an insurmountable obstacle to making a safe DIY projector retrofit.

It's really the only choice for people who are stuck with abysmal factory lights. The newer cars are fine, they have better headlights. The older cars are fine, because they have sealed beams and you can find a whole bunch of great H1/H4 replacement headlights for them. But late 80s thru the 90s, there are a whole bunch of cars with terrible headlights and very few options beyond high efficacy bulbs, a harness, and replacement housings.

 

[madrabbitt]

Just wondering why you have D2R not D2S burners? The pic of your Jeep looks like they have projector units, so would expect D2S burners??

I've been asking that for years.

The projectors were sourced out of a wrecked 350Z with factory hid.
The Z has D2R capsules in their projectors, and the projector bases are notched for the R and not the S.

It doesnt make any sense to me, and the best explanation I've heard yet, is that the Z has a combination of projector and reflector, therefore they designed the optics around the R capsule with the anti-glare strip.

I've been tempted to put D2C capsules in there, the ones with the dual notches, but since the optics were designed around the D2R capsules, i figured i'd stick with that.

As for the current issue, now, the affected bulb is more of an 8000K deep blue color, rather then pink... which is an improvement... a slight one.
Still probably on the illegal side of the color spectrum, and putting out about half the light that the good side is putting out.
My spare bulbs are being overnighted and will be here tomorrow, so I suppose I just wont drive this vehicle tonight.


I'm looking on ebay for some OEM takeouts, however, my experience with ebay, as for HID components, is you rarely get what you expect, with all this re-labeling, and counterfeit stamps.

If anyone has a reliable seller for good OEM D2R bulbs, please let me know.
I dont want to replace the junk with more junk.

 

[madrabbitt]

Brand new Philips 85122 bulbs are under $70/pair on ebay. Just go get those. There are a decent amount of people on HIDP running them with 55w ballasts, and not many problems reported. Lifespan goes down, sure, but I haven't heard of any catastrophic failures like those which occur with cheap kit bulbs.

As for ballasts, kinda shocking to hear that your OEM one went out. Maybe it was an issue of waterproofing? The longevity on OEM ballasts is great, but they do not like moisture at all.

Just pop in your old Philips bulb into the bad side, and deal with mis-matched bulbs for a week or two while you wait for the new Philips bulbs to come from ebay.

I know most people with projector retrofits have had no problems taking them through state inspections.

I've said it before, but I think the vibration resistance, water resistance, and dirt resistance of the retrofits is not as big of an issue as it is often made out to be. Headlight housings are just about always designed to be secured very well to the car, and to move as little as possible. Most projectors are mounted at where the bowl meets the lens holder, which is often pretty close to the center of mass of the projector. As long as you thoroughly test the mounting to make sure it doesn't vibrate, and as long as you re-seal the headlights well (preferably with OEM butyl headlight sealant), neither of those two things are serious issues. They're certainly one of the several concerns to address when retrofitting, but they're not an insurmountable obstacle to making a safe DIY projector retrofit.

It's really the only choice for people who are stuck with abysmal factory lights. The newer cars are fine, they have better headlights. The older cars are fine, because they have sealed beams and you can find a whole bunch of great H1/H4 replacement headlights for them. But late 80s thru the 90s, there are a whole bunch of cars with terrible headlights and very few options beyond high efficacy bulbs, a harness, and replacement housings.

1. I'll specifically look for those, thanks
2. Yes, we think it was a moisture issue that killed the original OEM nissan ballasts.
3. thats the plan, sticking my single remaining phillips bulb back in until i can get quality replacements. I actually checked a few junkyards today to see if i could find a single one, but nothing. Generally any car nice enough to have factory HID's is well stripped by the time it gets to the yard.
4. The Z was chosen as the donor over other projectors because of the size of the units and the ability to properly mount them to the housing, mostly because I absolutely needed to keep the OEM aiming system intact.

And you're right, theres not much in the aftermarket to get better quality lighting out of these types of vehicles. I tried HIR in the low beam, but the improvement was minimal. (The high beam, however, HIR bulbs are awesome) I opened the housings and removed the low beam shield, that improved the performance, but also brought out-of-beam glare to unacceptable levels (and no, that never got put on the street, it never left my workbench like that)

This truck had silverstars in the lows and highs it when i bought it, and those were replaced the same day with nokya bulbs that i had laying around (clear glass, no tint, and none of that stage II higher wattage crap) and I quickly built a new harness for it, but the OEM light output has always sucked.

I'm coming from a cherokee which had hella e-code housings and decent clear glass H4's with a 12 gauge/40 amp relay harness.

This jeep sees 30-40k miles a year, including ALOT of night driving.
The HID retrofit has put more light on the road then anything else I tried, without having to rely on high beams or aux lights, and it keeps it out of oncoming driver's eyes.

 

[mrb]

I've been asking that for years.
The projectors were sourced out of a wrecked 350Z with factory hid.
The Z has D2R capsules in their projectors, and the projector bases are notched for the R and not the S.

It doesnt make any sense to me, and the best explanation I've heard yet, is that the Z has a combination of projector and reflector, therefore they designed the optics around the R capsule with the anti-glare strip.

That explanation sounds reasonable to me, I have seen the earlier 350z HIDs and they looked to emit from the side with refector too which would explain the odd shaped projector with cut-outs.

What have you done with the extra holes in the projector? Seems they were designed to use the additional reflector only present in the complete OEM light unit, if you don't also have that part present you're probably getting a sub-optimal output anyway.

I found a page where 350z guts were put into a older 240sx, they said this:

350Z projectors are gone. they were not as good as i expected since the side reflectors from the 350z headlights are missing, something i did not know at the time i bought them.
Now im waiting for a pair of cadillac XLR bi-xenon projectors to put them on. It should be easier since i have alittle more practice now. I want to get the high beam solenoids working so i can have high beams too, something the 350z projectors didnt have.

If your project aim is to obtain the best output reasonably possible using OEM light components, then it seems the 350z projector is most likely not the best choice in this case. But colour issues aside, if you are satisfied with output then just get Philips burners.

 

[TorchBoy]

I must admit, I bought one of those "junk shop in China" kits to retrofit a into a HID refractor. ...
Yes, I know it isn't legal, ...

I'm glad I read that page of Daniel's. Made me decide not to do a retrofit in one of our cars. I'm using an HID kit in a OEM refractor HID headlight assembly...not a retrofit.

Are those two posts referring to the same thing? The first is an illegal retrofit, the second an apparently legal non-retrofit.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Just wondering why you have D2R not D2S burners? The pic of your Jeep looks like they have projector units, so would expect D2S burners??

Here's a close-up pic of some chinese burners I had, maybe normal but can see the electrodes look to be pitted after only a few start-up cycles.

Looks like globs of mercury clinging to the electrodes.