ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

 

[Size15's]

We need to keep this thread focused so that it remains useful.

 

[Hans]

Remember folks, lithium cells really can be truely dangerous, and they really need to be treated with respect.

Thanks for that post and your many other posts about lithium cell safety. I really appreciate these posts.

One suggestion: There's so much information around now that it would be nice to have it all in one place. I'm wondering whether someone would be prepared to write a post outlining in simple, non-technical language which precautions users should take, both with primaries and with rechargeables. There are so many people reading this forum, quite a few of them new to lithium cells, that such a post might save people from serious injury. I know there's a sticky on the topic of rechargeables, but even in that thread the really important information is spread over a number of posts.

Hans

 

[milkyspit]

Bill PM'd me to mention the links in the below were broken... I just updated them so they should work... if not, someone please let me know via PM!

First, the MC2 thread itself... post #30 is the one with all the battery discussion...

Milkyspit's MC2 Thread (Also Milky Tester) [first page of the thread]

Milkyspit's MC2 Thread (Also Milky Tester) [post #30 specifically]

That post references two other threads...

My 123 Test! Tekcell vs. Surefire

Then there's one other thread which might offer some supplemental info, although it doesn't necessarily address explosion risk...

What IS that smell from 123 cells?

Hope this helps!

WOW,

milkyspit was all over this a long time ago!! I found this particularly enlightening in reference to the current thread:

"Anyway, I ALWAYS measure flash amps of the partially used cells that I pull from my lights, then use a Sharpie permanent black magic marker to mark the reading directly on the side of the cell. I store them all upright in a Tupperware container with no lid (so it's more like a tray), with non-conductive spacers (foam, paper, plastic...) filling the empty space so there's no possibility of the cells falling over and perhaps shorting against one another. I keep the cells organized in order of their flash amps readings. Then, when I want to feed the MC2, I select a pair of cells with the same flash amps readings... plus I RETEST the cells just before popping them into the light, because sometimes the readings will have changed while the cells sit in storage. I believe strongly in this, and it's applicable to new cells and other 123 cell lights: NEVER PUT CELLS HAVING SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT FLASH AMPS READINGS INTO THE SAME LIGHT!"

I will see if Scott still has those posts, (he seems to keep everything he ever wrote backed up!) and I can maybe post them in a new thread about cells in the battery section.

Bill

 

[bwaites]

Hans, I think that your request is what everyone here is trying to get to.

As yet, though, we're not there, because we REALLY still don't know the cause of these explosions. We do know that the VAST majority, (literally millions) of cells have no problems, then BANG!!!

Whoops, Milkyspit posted while I was posting and beat me to it!


Bill

 

[milkyspit]

As I understand it- flash amps may actually be a BETTER representation of cell capacity than amps into a reasonable load.. 2 cells of significantly different life remaining- could generate very similar current accross a reasonable load and be difficult to distinguish- whereas into a dead short- a parcially depleted cell is more likally to show a comparable and significant variation in results...

In the experimentations I have done with lithium primary cells, sets of cells that all deliver a solid 10-12 flash amps, will generally result in LONG runtimes with even discharge in my lights.. I have also found many "new" cells that will only deliver a reading of around 2-4 flashamps... if I use one of those cells in conjunction with "good" cells in a light- that cell dies quickly, leaving me with many parcially drained cells, and one fully drained cell.. When I use sets of those poor performing cells (the ones that deliver less than ideal flash amps) together in a light- they tend to discharge somewhat equally- but the flashlight does not last as long as it would have with "good" cells...

my "gut" tells me that "flash amps" produce a result that has greater resolution than a test with a normal load... The proof of this concept is the ZTS tester... while it may give some indication that something about a particular cell may be "different" it is very obvious from the testing I have read that the numbers it generates for capacity should be taken with a grain of salt... Kevin was just saying a little while ago that a battery that tested low, and a bettery that tested 100%, both run through a single cell light, generated a runtimes that were nearly equal to the minut.. The ZTS tester- aparantly uses "normal" loads to determin it's results... I think there is too much acceptable variation in "full" lithium cells into normal loads to determin capacity....

I think it would be very interesting to compare what the ZTS tester says- to flashamp comparisons..

I'll second what mdocod says here... and note that he explained it far better than I've tried to, even though over the years I've tried... and tried... and tried! Thanks mdocod.

Incidentally, measuring flash amps on a 123 cell is very similar to measuring internal resistance of the cell... this because a 123 cell's voltage stays in a fairly narrow range during its service life... typically 3-3.2V brand new, and 2.4-2.6V when totally spent... and since Ohm's Law says V=IR, and flash amps (I in this case) change dramatically during the 123 cell's life, from as high as 12.00A all the way to 0.00A, you're pretty much approximating R, which would be the internal cell resistance.

BTW, use your DMM's highest range (10A? 20A?) when testing flash amps, and hold the probes on the cell ONLY until the current starts dropping... this should happen within one second or so. The highest value you saw is the flash amps reading... I find the fractional portion isn't all that significant, so "8.36" would get binned from a flash amps perspective as "8." A good DMM also helps... there are probably many that will work... for what it's worth, I do my flash amps using a Fluke 77-III that I'd picked up off ebay a few years ago.

 

[mdocod]

I think it would be really nice to see a battery tester designed for lithiums- that basically did a very fast flashamp style test.. it wouldn't neccessarily even have to last for 2 seconds (to get a high reading) but rather see how fast the current ramps up in the first fraction of a second to generate a result...

the problem with such a device- would be that the quality of the connection to the battery, could have a significant impact on results- if the contact points developped just a slight amount of corrosion it could generate bogus results.... Would need to be cleaned and/or pro-golded frequently to maintain proper results.

 

[jclarksnakes]

Many of the posts on this thread and especially the most recent ones seem to be along the theory that these mishaps were caused solely by mismatched cells and that good testing of flash amps and matching of cells can prevent this problem. I do not discount the possibility that mismatched cells were the cause, possibly even the sole cause, of these mishaps but I do not think we should overlook the possibility that these mishaps are moisture related. As most of you know lithium erupts into flame when dropped into water. Perhaps the strong spring on the Pellican light is flexing the can of the cells and causing a crack which is allowing moisture, possibly only in the form of humid air to enter the cell. Heat also "seems" to be a issue in these mishaps but those people who are only testing using heating and intentionally mismatched cells may want to broaden their testing to include some moisture introduced into the cells. This could be dangerous and should be conducted carefully. Good luck and be careful there.
jc

 

[NewBie]

Humm...

Moisture. Possible that it could get around the cap crimp, but if you have disassembled as many of these 123 cells as I have, it would be quite hard to damage the very robust crimp.

Extremely low amounts of water molecules might be able to *very* slowly permeate through the plastic insulator that is between the button and the can, over a long period of time, but it would seem very unlikely to get enough through to cause an issue.

However...

There is a thin membrane, that is maybe 0.003" thick, that is between the vent exit holes and the internal cell area. It is designed to rupture due to pressure, typically around 40 PSI, though the pressure may be different for primary cells. If this were to rupture, or get damaged, there would be a clear open path for moisture ingress. I haven't looked at that vent seal membrane in detail, but it seems to be nothing more than plastic coated aluminum, the plastic feels like a polyfloromer, like one of the typical UHMW plastics.

Possibly, if the cells were to be transported by air (altitude), the membrane on some cells might possibly rupture. This would allow moisture in, but the reaction might be slow enough, especially with the plates in the electrolyte, that one doesn't see much of anything happen normally.

When heat is introduced, reactions speed up, as well as several other factors which happen....

Anyhow, this is pretty far out on a limb, but something for the folks concerned to consider...


Lunarmodule, when this PM6 was shipped to you with cells, was it declared as lithium cells and went via ground (to Hawaii this can take a *very* long time), or was it undeclared and went via Air (priority/2nd day/next day- or even 1st class can go by air these days...)?


From my 123 thread, here are some of the internals:
Duracell:

SureFire/Energizer:

 

[frisco]

Good point...... we should ask LM ...... I've been to Hawaii many times.... it can be very humid.

frisco

Many of the posts on this thread and especially the most recent ones seem to be along the theory that these mishaps were caused solely by mismatched cells and that good testing of flash amps and matching of cells can prevent this problem. I do not discount the possibility that mismatched cells were the cause, possibly even the sole cause, of these mishaps but I do not think we should overlook the possibility that these mishaps are moisture related. As most of you know lithium erupts into flame when dropped into water. Perhaps the strong spring on the Pellican light is flexing the can of the cells and causing a crack which is allowing moisture, possibly only in the form of humid air to enter the cell. Heat also "seems" to be a issue in these mishaps but those people who are only testing using heating and intentionally mismatched cells may want to broaden their testing to include some moisture introduced into the cells. This could be dangerous and should be conducted carefully. Good luck and be careful there.
jc

 

[NewBie]

Please folks, do NOT EVER try any of the stuff I am showing you, I've seen some of these cells violently throw flames and hot molten material like a rocket engine. I have some special 1/2" thick plexiglass that I do all this stuff behind, forced ventilation in an open area, and thick welders gloves, and I still wear a full face chemical shield and sealed goggles, and a few other safety precautions.

Well, decided to take some more pictures for folks of the button top and it's construction on the SureFire/Energizer and Duracell batteries:

I also ran another test, with a Duracell 123 that I cut open, and dropped in some water, at times it made more bubbles than you see in the picture, but that is about all that happened. It may be due to the limited rate at which the liquid water can actually enter into the tightly wrapped cell, which would be much different than a moisture filled cell that heats up...

Please folks, do NOT EVER try any of the stuff I am showing you, I've seen some of these cells violently throw flames and hot molten material like a rocket engine. I have some special 1/2" thick plexiglass that I do all this stuff behind, forced ventilation in an open area, and thick welders gloves, and I still wear a full face chemical shield and sealed goggles, and a few other safety precautions.

 

[Geologist]

Again,

Coincidence - I shipped a package to LM with 8 new BS CR2 batteries las year. The package also arrived with the batteries leaking.

ALSO - I still think the Pelican is contributing to the issue - seems also too coincidental that we are not seeing reports for other multi cell lights - I mean I know the exist but only ones I've seen is the 9P link in this thread and before a reference to someone with one of the Xenon Asian Cheapie lights that apparently went nova on an airflight (owned by stewardess? bought in HK? long time ago...). I am not calling the M6 an exploding light - I am just saying that maybe there is a design element in the older models that with used/mismatched cells, there is a higher rate of catostrophic failure.

Topper - when you did your "test" did you just take mismatched cells, turn it on and leave it? I might be willing to try a similar test with a SF G2 if I could get a metal box to contain any potential problems...

 

[leukos]

Newbie, there might be something to your theory about primary CR123a's puncturing their safety membrane while being transported by plane.

 

[Icebreak]

Thanks again and again, Jar, for your continued educational contributions to this board. It's one thing to read and imagine but to see the elements being discussed up close is a great help.

 

[g36pilot]

FWIW: Li battery precautions for beginners. It was interesting to see the previously mentioned cautions in a single list.



Primary Lithium Battery FAQ


1. What is "short circuit"? May I short circuit Lithium battery?

If the positive and negative terminals come into contact with each other or with a metal object, this can cause a short circuit, generating heat. If the batteries are stacked on top of each other or Mixed, the resulting short circuit can lead to heat generation, leakage, bursting and, eventually fire.

Do not short circuit Lithium batteries.

2. May I apply heat on Lithium batteries or dispose of in fire?

If heated to 100°C or more, plastic materials in the battery such as the gasket and separator may be damaged, causing leakage. The heat generated by a short circuit inside the batteries may lead to bursting or combustion. If disposed of in fire, batteries may burn violently.

3. May I solder Lithium batteries directly?

If solder is applied directly to the battery, resin materials in the Lithium batteries such as the gasket and separator may be damaged due to overheating. This can cause leakage, and heat generated by a short circuit inside the battery may lead to bursting or fire. Even if no abnormality takes place immediately after soldering, the resulting leakage and other damage may harm the components attached to the battery over a long period of usages

4. May I charge Primary Lithium batteries?

When a Primary Lithium battery is charged, gas is generated inside the battery and can result in swelling, heat generation, leakage bursting and fire.

5. May I force discharge Lithium batteries?

When batteries are force-discharged with an external power source, the voltage drops to under O V (reverse electrode), and inner gas is generated. This can lead to swelling, heating, leakage, bursting or fire.

6. May I disassemble, apply excessive pressure on Lithium batteries?

If a battery is disassembled by force, gas may be generated which may cause throat irritation, or the Lithium metal may generate heat, causing fire. If deformed under pressure or under impact, distortion of the seal may lead to leakage, or a short circuit inside the battery may lead to swelling, heat generation, bursting or fire.

7. Can I use Lithium batteries mixing with other battery types?

If different types of batteries are used together, or new batteries are used with old ones, the difference in characteristics of voltage, capacity, etc., may cause over-discharge of the battery which is exhausted first, leading to swelling, bursting or fire.

8. Can Lithium battery be contacted with water?

No. This may cause corrosion or the formation of combustible gas.

9. Where Lithium batteries should be stored?

Lithium batteries should be stored in a place not exposed to direct sunlight. Make sure the area is dry and has minimal temperature variation. Storage in areas subject to high temperatures, humidity or rain may cause deterioration in battery quality and durability. To avoid short circuiting batteries during storage, be sure that the positive and negative terminals do not come in to contact with each other.





http://www.able-battery.com/Lithium_batteriy_FAQ.htm

 

[g36pilot]

Newbie, there might be something to your theory about primary CR123a's puncturing their safety membrane while being transported by plane.

This may be a contributing factor, but shouldn't be the primary cause as the new UN testing uses a pressure test.

>>
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]New Testing and Transportation Requirements
The new UN regulatory scheme includes many of the same provisions first developed in the VATCP. It also requires that all lithium and lithium ion cells and batteries manufactured after January 1, 2003 pass the following UN Tests prior to being transported:
Test 1: Altitude Simulation - This test simulates air transport under low-pressure conditions......[/font]
http://www.batterypoweronline.com/july02Li-IonRegulations.htm

 

[OutdoorIdiot]

This was the older style m6, and was a brand new box of 12 surefire batteries that I had for about 14 months. I was on vacation and had left the light in my boat on the trailer at a hotel it was parked right outside the room and while we were going in the room I heard a loud bang after a WTF was that, I searched through the boat and found the light, still hot, lens in pieces, crud all in the top and bottom of the tube and could not remove the batteries, luckily it was in a small toolbox so no damage to anything or anyone but the light.

This all happened about two years ago.

Thank you.

If I may quote Columbo (I don't have the dirty mac and I can't do the eyes, unfortunately), "Just one more thing...":

To your knowledge, was the light turned on when you left it? If not, had it been on just before you left it, and if so, had it been in your hand, and for how long had it been turned on?

I'm not expecting you can be sure about something that happened so long ago, but the information, if you can remember it, could be very useful in helping people spot patterns.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Topper]

"Topper - when you did your "test" did you just take mismatched cells, turn it on and leave it? I might be willing to try a similar test with a SF G2 if I could get a metal box to contain any potential problems..."

Well sort of. I took it outside placed it on the driveway..Bezel pointed North
and I was 10/12 feet East of it most of time inside with the door closed (French doors with glass panes so I could still watch) I figured if it "popped" parts would fly North and South so I was not worried. Now I did get closer to check to see how hot it was getting but only long enough to get a reading.
I know I got a 122 degree reading as the hottest then it started to drop off.
I feel fairly confident if I had been holding the light I would have shut it down before it got that hot and nothing would have happened. But that is just a guess.
Topper

 

[Topper]

I would like to point out that it is my understanding that Kevin has been using G2,s as one of the lights in his tests so I do not think any of us need to risk one. I also have roughly 150+ 123's on hand so I am not looking to buy any right now but when I do I will buy Battery Station cells from Kevin with out a doubt.
Topper

 

[NewBie]

This may be a contributing factor, but shouldn't be the primary cause as the new UN testing uses a pressure test.

>>
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]New Testing and Transportation Requirements
The new UN regulatory scheme includes many of the same provisions first developed in the VATCP. It also requires that all lithium and lithium ion cells and batteries manufactured after January 1, 2003 pass the following UN Tests prior to being transported:
Test 1: Altitude Simulation - This test simulates air transport under low-pressure conditions......[/font]
http://www.batterypoweronline.com/july02Li-IonRegulations.htm

As I understand it, passing the tests has various levels, each has a criteria for passing.

38.3.4.1 Test 1: Altitude simulation

38.3.4.1.1 Purpose
This test simulates air transport under low-pressure conditions.

38.3.4.1.2 Test procedure
Test cells and batteries shall be stored at a pressure of 11.6 kPa or less for at least six hours at ambient temperature (20 ± 5 °C).

38.3.4.1.3 Requirement
Cells and batteries meet this requirement if there is no mass loss, no leakage, no venting, no disassembly, no rupture and no fire and if the open circuit voltage of each test cell or battery after testing is not less than 90% of its voltage immediately prior to this procedure. The requirement relating to voltage is not applicable to test cells and batteries at fully discharged states.

Take the mass loss criteria:
ST/SG/AC.10/27/Add.2
page 4
where M1 is the mass before the test and M2 is the mass after the test. When mass loss does not exceed the values in table 1, it shall be considered as "no mass loss".

-my note: from the table below shown below there, a lithium battery may loose anywhere between 0.5% of it's mass to 0.1% of it's mass during testing, depending on it's size. Thus one could puncture the barrier, and as long as nothing happened during that test, that exceeds each required limit, the battery would pass.


The document for those interested:
http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2000/ac10/ST-SG-AC10-27a2e.pdf

The testing does not consider multiple conditions at once, or what happens over a long period of time (weeks/months). They are just concerned about what happens at the time of transport. There are a few, that look at what happens over seven days, like the charge test.


Now from the regulations themselves:
188 Lithium cells and batteries offered for transport are not subject to other provisions of these Regulations if they meet the following:

(a) For a lithium metal or lithium alloy cell, the lithium content is not more than 1 g, and for a lithium-ion cell, the lithium-equivalent content is not more than 1.5 g;

(b) For a lithium metal or lithium alloy battery the aggregate lithium content is not more than 2 g, and for a lithium-ion battery, the aggregate lithium-equivalent content is not more than 8 g;

(c) Each cell or battery is of the type proved to meet the requirements of each test in the Manual of Tests and Criteria, Part III, sub-section 38.3;

so on and excetra....

Notice how there are specific provisions if the cells cannot meet the above criteria, and how the pallet or shipping container must be then marked and treated for transport. As I see it, I'm seeing more and more lithium cells labeled as Dangerous, since they do not meet the UN criteria...

Reference:
http://www.unece.org/trans/danger/publi/unrec/rev14/English/03E_Part3.pdf


So, the implied idea that all Lithium cells meet the UN testing criteria, isn't so. It is just if they don't meet them, then you see the special Danger markings, and handling requirements, such that they fall under the Dangerous Goods transport requirements.

If they can meet all the tests and requirements, then they don't need to be treated as Dangerous Goods for transport purposes.


Someone earlier said the LAX incident that generated all the hub-bub on battery transport was due to alkaline cells. Not so:

"Lithium Battery Incident at Los Angeles International Airport

While RSPA was preparing its June 21, 2001 rule, an incident
occurred at the Los Angeles International Airport involving a
shipment of two pallets of small, consumer-size primary lithium
batteries that raised serious concerns at RSPA and the National
Transportation Safety Board regarding the exception then applicable
to lithium and lithium ion batteries. The pallets, containing 120,000
primary lithium batteries, caught fire and burned after being
mishandled and damaged by cargo handling personnel. At the time,
these batteries were excepted from regulation under the HMR and
ICAO Technical Instructions"


As for UL testing, if you look carefully, there are various levels for each test criteria. From memory, if I don't have them mixed up, a battery that passes to class 4 is allowed to vent, and flame, and it is considered to pass UL tesing class 4. It was something like Class 1, that showed no vent/smoke/flame/rupture/etc.

Often, the devil is in the details.


As far as some of the dangers of Lithium cells, here is another good presentation:
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/lithexpl.pdf


Lithium Cells could be used in aircraft equipment though. Cells that meet the FAA requirements will each be marked on the body accordingly. These special cells fall under TSO-C179, and I'm not sure if this TSO has been officially approved or not.
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/media/DRichTSO-C179.pdf


One should note specifically, some of the special provisions of things like shipping these cells, such as is found on the Energizer 123 cell datasheet:

Shipping: For complete details, please reference:

Global: Special Provision A45 of the International Air Transport Association Dangerous Goods Regulations

United States: 49 CFR 173.185

g36pilot Please notice the Dangerous Goods provision, which would mean that they were not able to meet the criteria for not being classified as dangerous goods....and fall under special provision A45...