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Seoul P7: Cool LED but what am I missing?

Mel_PL

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Mar 4, 2006
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Brwinów/PL
IMO the four dies should have four individual reflecting surfaces. I mean that an intersection of 4 parabolic MOP reflectors slightly shifted so that each die is perfectly focused will allow to get rid of the donut hole.
I remember someone did such experiments with multiple Cree with good results.

-- M.
 

precisionworks

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Apr 19, 2007
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Benton Illinois
If done so, it would be akin to an L4 on steroids.

Now that's what I'm talking about:twothumbs

the best idea is simply to implement thermal feedback.
Easy to do, and inexpensive also. The 120P & others currently use this approach.

the four dies should have four individual reflecting surfaces
AFAIK, emitters, whether single die or multi die, have no reflecting surfaces. They contain single or multiple emitting surfaces, whose output is shaped & directed by the encapsulating 'plastic' dome that's molded over the die board. Final beam shape & distribution is determined by the optic of choice & the type, size & shape of the reflector, as well as reflector surface finish.
 

Mel_PL

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Brwinów/PL
Mel_PL said:
the four dies should have four individual reflecting surfaces
AFAIK, emitters, whether single die or multi die, have no reflecting surfaces....

Okay, maybe it's a language issue.
I meant that each one of the four dies in P7 should work with its dedicated one-fourth reflector surface. Similar solutions are used in sattelite antennas where the converter is off-axis.

Here's my idea:
blue = one emitter, one reflector
red = four emitters, four intersecting reflectors
Unfortunately, I cannot check the results.

P7.gif


-- M.
 
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paulr

Flashaholic
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Mar 29, 2003
Messages
10,832
I haven't seen a P7 but I've played with a few Luxeon V lights that had that donut hole artifact and it didn't bother me much. Your mileage may vary.
 

McGizmo

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May 1, 2002
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Maui
rolling,

A diffuser film just above the dice might well present a more uniform in density image but but one that much larger and difficult to collimate. It would aid in getting rid of a donut hole but it would also result in even more of a flood. Nothing wrong with that unless one was seeking a tight collimated beam.

Mel_PL,

In your illustration, over 75% of the light (radially speaking relative to each die's "Z" axis) will encounter a reflective surface optimized for its neighbor die which is even further off axis than a community surface based on the the common "Z" axis. I don't know what the resulting beam would look like but would anticipate less overall collimation than before.

Guys,

One of the first hosts I selected for experimenting with the P7 was a PR-T head I had. I figured with the anodized integral bulkhead of the PR-T and a surface larger in diameter than the P7, it would be an easy mount and good thermal start. The McR-27 reflector has the longest focal length of all of the McR series and this is the best suited in regards to collimation of the large image of the P7. The McR-27 is such a shallow reflector that the lion's share of light gets out the front without ever making contact with the reflector and the PR-T head can be used without any reflector for a reasonable Mule flood.

From evaluation on the bench of the P7 I identified what I needed to do to a McR-27 reflector to bring the focal point of the reflector in alignment with the image of the P7. The resulting beam was a monster wide flood field with a collimated hot spot in center and also a visible donut hole. Of course in actual use, one can get past the artifact of the donut hole but it is there.

If you want to take this light output and bend it to your will, the deper the reflector, the more light you bend. Because of this, I took a McR-45 and modified it for focal alignment and also had to remove material from a "step" to allow it to drop down into the PR-T head. As expected, the beam had a much more intense spot but still a donut hole artifact.

I then tried a stock McR-27 and McR-38 which put the focal point of the reflector well in front of the image. This is what I used to do with the LuxV's to remove the donut hole at the expense of collimation. You have to look very hard with these to find some irregularities in the spot.

I consider the P7 as a flood source plain and simple and found that the McR-45 with image backed out from focus gave a nice thrust of light where the spill beam has been choked down by virtue of the reflector's depth and spill is impressively bright as it also has some divergent and wayward streams of photons from the off axis source coupled with the orange peel of the reflective surface. I would call the beam a concentrated flood with a large and hot center. It does have some throw to be sure but nothing compared to a single, on axis die in similar reflector.

The geometry of the McR-27 and McR-45 which is the same reflector just grown deeper allowed me to visit a convertible idea and the HD45 head was such that I could modify it to replace the PR-T bezel cap.

PR-T-P7-Convertable.jpg


PR-T-P7.jpg


HD45-PR-T-P7.jpg


As with the PK2 mod, I used a SOB 1625 in this PR-T mod and the head is hosted on a Balrog 3x123 pak.

I realize this is already a long winded post but I am going to extend it with some more observations and rambling which should just about complete my P7 musings.

In dinking around with the P7, I realized a great candidate for hosting and modding with the P7 would be the good old Pelican M6. If one had an original with the threads in the tube for the LE, you could have a great foundation for hosting the P7. Further, the M6 can be bored to host the 16 mm Li-Ion cells and you can add I think they are called A-19 extenders to grow the length of the tube? Anyway, as an alternate to the Mag hosts yet still of mass and surface in line with thermal considerations for the P7, I think the Pelican M6 would be a good foundation.

I think most important in my observations with the P7 was the realization that here you have a single LED capable of major lumens which is great but dang if you need this much light often!! The P7 is a LED that could be better managed with a driver of variable output; especially given that it is basically a flood source. If this LED is driven across its full range, I could see a 4 level driver as well justified. Without variable output, I think the P7 would be quite limited in its use unless it was in a very large reflector with a sole purpose of distant illumination.

The more I think about the P7 the more I think I can appreciate what I believe team PK has in store for this LED. It will be interesting to see the level of sharpness in projection they choose for the P7.

Personally, if I can get a hold of a buck driver that has variable output (30mA-2800mA range) and capable of being driven from the Makita 18V Li-Ion, I would like to make a mule team light. :)
 

LEDninja

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
4,896
Location
Hamilton Canada
I would love to see a P7 in an E Series package, driven to only moderate levels ... 200 lumens or so. Just not sure if this can be done anytime soon.
Both DX and Kai are selling 5 mode 18650 P7 torches.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12060
http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=4377
KD Test 1: (with one 18650)
4.2V~220.0mA (low)
4.2V~1160mA(Middle)
4.2V~2500mA(High)
My guesstimate is the middle level at 1160mA should produce ~200 lumens out front.
AFAIK only the DX one has reached the hands of CPF members (pun intended):
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/195228
 

IMSabbel

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Joined
Dec 4, 2004
Messages
921
The P7 may be the first high flux emitter that needs active cooling, versus passive heat spreading. Thermal management by conduction is effective IF the conducting area is large enough to dissipate the heat generated.
I seriously doubt you would need active cooling. Not in anything larger than a l0p, that is.

Even 3 or 4 radial fins extruded around the head would double the effective convection cooling.

Taking a head like the TK-10, and just extend the broadened section for 2-3 more cm, with fins, would be more than enough for a P7.

Plain, round cylinders just suck as heatsinks...

Another option to optimize cooling in larger flashlights, if you want to avoid fanning, would be the use of a heatpipe along the tube. This would require some design considerations (as the back of the Pill-holder will be tightly connected to the battery tubus, and a "bumb" on the cylinderwalls), but could help _enourmously_.
 
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