Surefire "clones" (counterfeits) for sale at gunshow UPDATE

BillSWPA

Enlightened
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
670
Location
Southwest PA
Although not applicable to SF as they are manufactured in the US, many companies that have their product manufactured in China run the risk of 'grey market' items being sold. These are items made on the same production lines as the real thing, basically once the production run for the company has finished, the factory keeps producing extra units that it then sells, undercutting the original manufacturer. Strictly speaking they aren't counterfeits, but likewise they aren't exactly genuine either.

Just to add some clarification to the intellectual property issues, and not just responding to this quote . . .

Gray market goods are goods that are legitimately manufactured by the maker whose trademark they bear, but are not authorized for the particular market into which they are being imported. Often, a US maker will make lower quality goods for export, knowing that in some foreign markets, the quality expectations are lower and the price charged will be lower. Obviously that maker would not want these products getting back into the US, where they would damage that maker's reputation. If these goods do make it back into the US, they would be gray market goods. Or, a foreign maker will sell the same goods to foreign distributors at a lower price, and to US distributors at a higher price. The foreign distributors will sometimes attempt to undercut the US distributors, resulting
in the foreign goods being imported as gray market goods.

A gray market product is legitimate under trademark law as long as it is equivalent to other products bearing that trademark, including the warranty under which it is protected. Manufacturers will often not warrant gray market goods, claiming that once the goods leave their established distribution chain, they have no control over what happens to them, and therefore they can no longer consider them to have been purchased new. So, the seller will sometimes offer their own warranty.

Omega watches recently attempted to stop the gray market by printing a copyrighted design on the back of their watches, and suing Costco for making the first US sale of the copyrighted design. Even though Costco had purchased legitimate Omega watches, a copyright owner has the right to control the first sale of a copy of the copyrighted design. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals held that the sale that a "first sale" occurring outside the US was not a "first sale" under US copyright law, because that would extend US law to foreign countries. The US Supreme Court split 4-4 on the issue. The US Supreme Court is currently considering the issue again, this time with respect to textbooks.

As for goods made on the same production line as the ones produced for a trademark holder but in excess of what the trademark holder ordered, if I understand the situation Ozgunnie is describing correctly (and it is quite possible that I do not), this appears to be an attempt to pass off the extra goods as goods coming from the trademark holder, and would likely involve at least trade dress, and possibly trademark, infringement.

Regarding patents, the requirements for obtaining a patent are that the patented subject matter must be novel (no one has done it before), nonobvious (it would not be obvious to one skilled in the art in light of what has been done before), and useful. Companies patent their innovations because they are the subject of significant research and development expense, and allowing third parties to reverse engineer them without undergoing these expenses would provide no incentive to do this research and development. Patent infringement causes serious harm to the innovative companies that did the R&D to produce the product.
 

CrimsonHell

Newly Enlightened
Joined
May 18, 2013
Messages
2
Hello guys I too my self having some questions regarding SF clones.

Now Im close to buy a SF a187195. But Im not an expert on SF and flashlights generally so some advices would be welcome....I have some photos of the flashlight and I would like to tell me if you can spot something unusual!!
take a look at this photobucket library and tell me....

http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Marneus_Calgar/slideshow/

:thanks: :thanks: :thanks:
 

Bullzeyebill

Flashaholic
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
12,164
Location
CA
CrimsonHell, I have approved your post, but it is off topic relative to the direction that the thread topic has taken. Please feel free to post your own thread with your questions. :)

Bill
 

ampdude

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
4,622
Location
USA
One thing I have found they are doing with some of these clones is silk screening the logo, fcc id and serial number onto the light instead of laser engraving it. I didn't know they were re-using the same serial over and over. Feel sorry for the guy who owns the legit M951 with that serial. :ohgeez:
 
Last edited:

Kaban

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Messages
180
What I find disturbing is if this guy would openly admit that he is selling knockoff lights to a person who doesn't know any better and comes to him thinking he is buying the real thing. I doubt this guys will tell someone " oh yeah by the way these are fake lights" to someone who has no idea.
 

BillSWPA

Enlightened
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
670
Location
Southwest PA
Gray market goods are goods that are legitimately manufactured by the maker whose trademark they bear, but are not authorized for the particular market into which they are being imported. Often, a US maker will make lower quality goods for export, knowing that in some foreign markets, the quality expectations are lower and the price charged will be lower. Obviously that maker would not want these products getting back into the US, where they would damage that maker's reputation. If these goods do make it back into the US, they would be gray market goods. Or, a foreign maker will sell the same goods to foreign distributors at a lower price, and to US distributors at a higher price. The foreign distributors will sometimes attempt to undercut the US distributors, resulting
in the foreign goods being imported as gray market goods.

A gray market product is legitimate under trademark law as long as it is equivalent to other products bearing that trademark, including the warranty under which it is protected. Manufacturers will often not warrant gray market goods, claiming that once the goods leave their established distribution chain, they have no control over what happens to them, and therefore they can no longer consider them to have been purchased new. So, the seller will sometimes offer their own warranty.

Omega watches recently attempted to stop the gray market by printing a copyrighted design on the back of their watches, and suing Costco for making the first US sale of the copyrighted design. Even though Costco had purchased legitimate Omega watches, a copyright owner has the right to control the first sale of a copy of the copyrighted design. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals held that the sale that a "first sale" occurring outside the US was not a "first sale" under US copyright law, because that would extend US law to foreign countries. The US Supreme Court split 4-4 on the issue. The US Supreme Court is currently considering the issue again, this time with respect to textbooks.

I apologize if this is off topic, but I though tit might be helpful to provide an update . . .

The US Supreme Court has now decided the textbook case I mentioned above. They found that the "first sale' doctrine applies to a legitimate copyrighted item regardless of where in the world the first legitimate sale takes place. Once the first legitimate sale takes place, the copyright owner's rights are extinguished with respect to that particular item (but not other copies). So, it is therefore not copyright infringement to import a "gray market" product containing copyrighted material into the US, as long as there was a legitimate first sale for which the copyright owner received the appropriate compensation. So, copyright is no longer a tool for fighting the gray market.
 

RIX TUX

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
451
Re: Surefire "clones" (counterfeits) for sale at gunshow

Hello Confederatescott,
My name is Thomas and I am the PR specialist for SureFire. I saw this post and wanted to know if you could contact me so we can look into the "phony" SureFire's. [email protected]
Kind Regards,
Thomas
interesting story, there are many fakes out there, I have bought a fake one on ebay and the seller just swore up and down it was a real one.
 

Bullzeyebill

Flashaholic
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
12,164
Location
CA
Re: Surefire "clones" (counterfeits) for sale at gunshow

Folks, there are five quotes of silveradohd39's post. Please, no more.

Bill
 

880arm

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
1,752
Location
Wildlands of Western Kentucky
Re: Surefire "clones" (counterfeits) for sale at gunshow

Check out how many Fakes there is out there. I sent the info to Surefire hope they shut the dogs down.

http://www.smallordersworth.com/led...0_91_92.html?zenid=7n86mbm8bgct040ks9r95tnlc0


:wave:

Pretty incredible. Looks like PayPal won't even do business with them. Noticed this on their shipping page . . .

Our Paypal account was frozen on Dec. 25th, 2012. So buyers please send the payment via.
Western Union. You can send the payment online in www.WesternUnion.com.
 

ronrog69

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
34
Location
East Texas
Re: Surefire "clones" (counterfeits) for sale at gunshow

I found these clones while looking for a Surefire E1E. Notice in the description for the E1D at smalloredersworth.com that it indicates these are replicas of the real thing. I haven't looked at the other Surefire clones to see if they contain this discreet disclaimer.
 

BillSWPA

Enlightened
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
670
Location
Southwest PA
Re: Surefire "clones" (counterfeits) for sale at gunshow

I found these clones while looking for a Surefire E1E. Notice in the description for the E1D at smalloredersworth.com that it indicates these are replicas of the real thing. I haven't looked at the other Surefire clones to see if they contain this discreet disclaimer.

Your post hit the nail on the head: discreet disclaimer. Everything about the listing and description would lead most consumers to believe that they are buying the real thing until they get to the end of the description.

I am an intellectual property attorney, and would be very, very surprised if this disclaimer prevented them from being held liable for willful trademark infringement. Trade dress infringement also appears quite likely.
 
Last edited:

chnzwh

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Apr 16, 2010
Messages
85
Location
Chicago -> HK
I just got to wonder which over seas manufacturer actually made it or what other brand lights may be made in the same facilities, especially since the OP said the body was well made and the printing on the logo was well done. To me it sounds like their not made on the same factory line as your everyday $2 flea market light, but then again maybe it is.

I buy plenty of over seas light and the ones I buy are well made and I'm proud of many of them, they are even my most prized EDC gear even ahead of my made in the US EDC blades.

Having said that I like to think the flashlight I buy are from manufactures that practice ethical business, I do sometimes wonder if some of these large umbrella corporations do it fact make some of these drones and I actually do business with them because I'm a fan and buy some of their company's (top brand) flashlights.

Maybe I'm way off but I would never buy another flashlight from a particular brand if I found out the manufacturer or parent company is involved with something like this but until I know for sure I can't discriminate.

Oh and I'm talking full on clones or severe and blatant rip off of very key designs, not things like patents that involve a side clicky or momentary on, call it hypocritical but it's a flashlight and some things are going to have to be similar or their will only be a few brands to choose from and that would be bad for the industry as a whole.

The brands you're looking for are Fire Kylin and Elements. I know there are more factories cloning SureFire in China but their products are not distributed in international markets.
 

AnAppleSnail

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
4,200
Location
South Hill, VA
If it's on topic, and y'all are interested, here is another route for gray-market goods to be produced: Suppose I go into business with a Chinese manufacturer to produce 5000 SnailFire flashlight bodies per month for five years. That's 300,000 lights for me to sell, and I may or may not ship machine tools and die presses (And other machining bits as needed) with contracts and riders and penalties not to give away my designs, and to return the machine tools after 5 years, and so on.

The next month I might find the market flooded with SlugFire lights that are just about like mine, down to the thread pitch and finishing. What happened? They made 10000 SnailFire lights per month. Or 20000. Just another way you get gray market things out there, and another risk to handle carefully with overseas manufacturing.

Props to SureFire for taking care of people who hurt their brand, and those who help them find them. I'll have to keep an eye out next time I go to a show ;)
 

tobrien

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
4,861
Location
Georgia Highway 441
Re: Surefire "clones" (counterfeits) for sale at gunshow

Your post hit the nail on the head: discreet disclaimer. Everything about the listing and description would lead most consumers to believe that they are buying the real thing until they get to the end of the description.

I am an intellectual property attorney, and would be very, very surprised if this disclaimer prevented them from being held liable for willful trademark infringement. Trade dress infringement also appears quite likely.

yeah i was gonna mention the willful infringement being the final nail in the coffin
 

Latest posts

Top