Surefire M6 / New Titanium 123's / Results / Not good *with pics and graphs*

[AmondoTech]

Hi Everybody,

I just want to let you know I did not forget the original purpose of this thread. I plan to purchase 2 M6's. One to keep here and one to take to the factory so we can develop Titanium batteries for use in devices that require batteries parallel and in series at the same time.

I want to point out that 1AMP discharge rate is relatively high current for CR123A not low. The CR123A batteries can last only 1 hour under 1A load. Most of the flashlights at full brightness will last more than one hour and draw less than 1A. The Surefire M6 is a special device that uses parallel and series and draw 2.5A. At full brightness of using 6 CR123A batteries, it can only last 20 mins.

I want to thank Tom, SilverFox, for quickly pinpointing the cause of the issue and explain the contradiction results from ZTS reading and Titanium Battery performance.


Warm Regards,
Wayne

www.amondotech.com

 

[bwaites]

Wayne,

While the M6 certainly puts a lot of draw on the cells, remember that many of the single stack lights, like the M3, M4, etc. put as much or more draw on a single stack than the M6 does on it's dual stacks.

The HOLA lamp assemblies of both the M3 and M4 are pulling 2+ amps, with both of them running for about that same 20 minutes that the M6 does on high.

Bill

 

[JimH]

I would like to speculate on the reason the readings for the ZTS tester are what they are. While talking with SilverFox, I learned that the ZTS tester applies a pulsed load for approx. 2 seconds, then takes a voltage reading. This single voltage reading is the basis for the readout on the display.

If you look at Tom's second graph where he expands the part of the previous graph at the very beginning, there is a correspondence between the voltages on the graph and the ZTS readings. Now, let's assume that the 100% curve is the reference curve. If the ZTS tester where to draw a horizontal line from the voltage it measured until it intersected the reference curve. It would then use that intersection point as the basis for the percent life remaining.

I know I have over simplified what must actually be going on, but my speculation would at least explain what we are seeing on the graphs.

Okay, everybody, where did I go wrong in my logic?

 

[JimH]

The HOLA lamp assemblies of both the M3 and M4 are pulling 2+ amps

I don't have an M6, but I do have an M4 with the HOLA. I'll bring it to the party tonight. This morning, I measured the draw at 2.51 amps. Wile it doesn't use a parrallel setup, it does use 4 cells in series.

 

[bwaites]

I suspect that the problem with the M6 doesn't so much lie in the draw, because it's draw is comparable with other lights on any individual cell, but in the fact that there are so many cells involved.

In comparison to an M3, for instance, you are twice as likely to have a bad cell, because you have twice as many cells to deal with.

I appreciate Wayne's interest and determination to do something about this, but I am not sure that you can. Lithium 123 cell tech isn't new, and we are stressing these cells to the max!!

If it is possible to build a high draw cell, remember, you will lose runtime. You can have any 2 of the 3, high voltage, high current, or long life. Since you are stuck with 3 volts, you can have high current at the expense of runtime, or you can have runtime at the expense of current. The 123 is the best available tradeoff of voltage and runtime using this chemistry. That is not to say that there aren't some bad cells screwing things up, but the more you push them, the more likely you are to find the problem. I, for one, am amazed that those little tiny 123's will push 2.5 amps anyway!!!

2.5 amp draws on cells designed for 1 amp draws is a little out of the envelope, folks!

If one in 10 cells is a little underperforming, the M6 will find it every 2 battery swaps, and you will have problems. I've had mine shut down on multiple different manufacturers cells, including Surefires. I think that once they shut down due to heat, they never will perform as well again, so that is why no one gets the full run out of them after the shutdown.

It would be interesting to do a 1 minute on, 2 minutes off, 1 minute one, 2 minutes off cycle to see how they fare with a little cool off.

Bill

 

[JimH]

It would be interesting to do a 1 minute on, 2 minutes off, 1 minute one, 2 minutes off cycle to see how they fare with a little cool off.

I think Bill summed up the situation pretty well. Since the M6 is designed to be a "tactical" flashlight, I would be more interested in a 5 min on, 15 min off duty cycle as a better approximation of real world tactical use. Of course, I could just be full of it and talking out my *** because the last time I was in a tactical situation was never.

 

[js]

[Edit]Forget it. Someone already made the point I made here.[/edit]

 

[wasBlinded]

I think you also have to consider how the M6 battery pack form factor may be influencing results. With those 6 cells in the holder, there isn't as much surface area per cell to dissipate heat generated within the cell. At a given current draw, a cell in an M6 holder is likely to get much hotter than the same cell pushing the same current but in a 1 or 2 cell package. This extra heat buildup may be contributing to early thermal shutdown.

 

[shotgun]

bwaits,

Very true!

Again, DC is simple stuff and we can't change Ohm's Law. There would be a trade-off that might not be acceptable to other battery users. We would be helping one scenario and hurting another by adjusting any formulas for this situation. I think that's over-thinking the problem.


The best we can hope for from all the parties concerned:



As mentioned, specially designed batteries specifically for series use, or...



Better matched batteries from the supplier (double check them at work/home too).



No duds in the mix for singles or matched.



Old school diligence.



I appreciate AmondoTech's efforts, but I think their suppliers are taking them for a ride. They need a "good talking to." Newly popular regulated LEDs are masking bad effects that can be noted in a demanding non-regulated incandescent light. Frankly, I believe their suppliers thought they wouldn't get caught -- or they might have just made a mistake or gotten sloppy.



I don't believe AmondoTech even sells incandescent lights so they must remain even more vigilant on behalf of their customers -- or it makes them look bad. Kudos to Wayne for his efforts.



I don't think it is any more complex than that.

 

[rufusdufus]

Is there anyone here who can tell me where to get information or supply of the Costco HID?

 

[AmondoTech]

Hi Everyone,

First, I like to thank Jim for taking the time to come over last night.

To try to thoroughly test the CR123A batteries in one night is "mission impossible". Jim suggested to write a test plan to include enough sample size. This way, we can draw a confident conclusion.

Our routine QC is to check for battery run time and capacity. We are communicating with the factory to include one more layer of the QC to address issues from Jim's finding and surefire M6 issue.

I will be leaving for a business trip this Friday and won't be back for a few weeks. There will be surefire M6 in my suitcase for the factory to conduct tests. Once we solve the problem of batteries in surefire M6, we will post here. Hopefully, this will make Titanium batteries better than ever.

Because I will be away, I can't answer any questions after Friday. If you have any questions, feel free to email me directly. I do need to address that I can't give out too much detail on CPF because we can't reveal our business strategy and technical detail in public.

Regards,
Wayne
www.amondotech.com

 

[shotgun]

Sounds good. Thanks, Wayne.

 

[Lunal_Tic]

Wayne,

Good luck on the battery testing. Don't forget to take an extra lamp assembly or you might get stuck without your M6 "test meter".

-LT

 

[bobbo]

Defiantly take an extra lamp,I purchased my M6 1-1/2 years ago -long story short-switched on the light,less than one minute later the light dimmed and the bulb exploded -SureFire replaced bulb and reflector.

 

[bobbo]

Messed-up,meant to say bulb/reflector AND lens.

 

[seery]

A few folks insist the M6 is a "tactical" short burst only light not designed by SF
as a "long run" light.

Talked with a SF rep and inquired about the design aspects and if the M6 were
designed with 5-minute usage in mind. He replied "How often will a search last
just 5 minutes? The M6 was designed as an ultra high-output light and to have the
longest continuous run time possible."

This is from the SF web site.

M6 Guardian®

Battery-powered incandescent. Ultra high-output incandescent flashlight for tactical, duty, or searchlight use.

So please...battery failure is NO REASON to begin fabricating tales as to what
SF had in mind when they designed the M6 light.

 

[lebox97]

and conversely how many search missions last 10-15 minutes?
(EDIT: the assumption here is we are talking HOLA MN21 bulb since that is what started this thread)
This and the other 2 threads you started, started out asking about performance of different brands 123's...

fabricating? people here are trying to tell how they actually USE an M6 and the experiences with 123's in it.

FACT: The M6 begins dimming as soon as you turn it on...
This is a very specialized light, designed and "normally" used for very special cicumstances
not, "let's see how many batteries at 18-24 batteries per hour can we go through on this mission".

I have 1000's of hours under my belt of doing SAR and LEO work - in the dark (and it get's REAL dark out here in the desert)... never have I used a specialized light like this for routine "normal" walk around/search in the desert for hours use. There are tons of other lights available that give 1-2 hours of run time without the worries of overheating the batteries, or blowing a bulb, are fast rechargeable and, have more readily available back up parts from co-workers and such.
I use normal lights for normal actvities - and whip out the M6 to check into things further if needed...

The M6 is best used for what is was designed for - A LOT OF LUMENS in a very small package, but it comes with a cost of short run times, and high battery consumption.
Keep fresh batteries in it - and know it'll be there when you need it.
(what LEO walks around wondering wether there is 5-10 minutes left on the batteries before getting into a situation, and where they put the 24 back up batteries and how are they going to change them out, and, and, and...? That's like wondering how many bullets do I think are in my gun when I pull it on someone - hmmmm, is it half loaded, or a quarter loaded today?) :huh:

PS:
seery: starting and feeding three separate threads talking about virtually the same thing, is a quick way to get a moderator to shut 1 or 2 of them down.

 

[seery]

lebox97 - The original M6 thread has developed into something very useful to SF M6 owners. So much so that Wayne is trying to find better suited batteries for the high drain lights. GREAT progress if you ask me.

The "CR123's...Where do we stand?" thread has allowed for great amounts of discussion and input on the results/opinions folks are having with the various cells we use.

The "ZTS MBT-1" thread if you follow it has quickly shown how we are learning to use the ZTS to help us "group" our batteries for better results. My average run times have gone way up thanks to "grouping" based on the ZTS test results.

IMHO all three threads are very useful and don't take away from the focus of the other discussions. Why wouldn't I "feed" all three threads? I am VERY interested in learning and sharing as much as possible about our current state of CR123's in the lights we use.

I've invested hundreds of dollars into 123's and hope my findings will help others not waste hard earned money on cells that have proven inconsistent or those that do not perform as expected.

Sounds like you use the lights that work in your situation, my guess would be that you weren't born with that information but that it was learned by T&E. That is what we are doing here, simply sharing our results with others. Thanks for serving our communities as a LEO, it is greatly appreciated. Just wish the gov't could figure out a way to pay the military and LE folks better, God knows thay all desrve it.

Isn't feeding threads what help us grow and learn as a community?

 

[cheapo]

Nothing wrong with titanium batts. They seem to work like a charm in my LED lights.

-David