Surefire M6 / New Titanium 123's / Results / Not good *with pics and graphs*

[lebox97]

the only way is to break open the shrink wrap and test them individually to make your own "matches"...
if these are going into high draw/amp lights - I highly suggest doing this to minimize the issues and maximize the runtimes...

I use all three "popular" brands - SF, BS, and Titanium - and found concerns (occasional duds) mixed with all of them, including the "matched" ones. :candle:

 

[tvodrd]

Has anyone taken an MB20 apart? I understood it had diodes to prevent reverse charging...

Hi Al,
On a whim I grabbed one of my 3 MB20s and went to check it out. It was dead! I measured 4 cells at less than .1V and 2 at ~2.8V I've had js's M6R pack in one M6 since I received it and the dead pack wasn't dead when removed. :shrug: The other loaded (spare) pack measured 9+V.

I rang it out and traced the connections on the side with a marker. I then measured the voltage on 3 good cells and installed them in the MB20. I measured the pack voltage at exactly the same as the sum of the 3 individual cell's voltages. Diodes usually have a forward voltage drop of at least .2V, so I don't think the packs are dioded. One of our esteemed EEs may show me the error of my ways, too.

Larry

 

[JimH]

I just picked up a box of 40 new CR123's right off the shelf from Tenergy. I tested each battery twice, 5 seconds between tests. Out of 40 batterries, all batteries tested 100% on the first test, and all but 1 tested 100% on the second test. The one that tested less than 100% read 80%.

Based on this limited testing, I'm pretty impressed. If this continues to be the case, it looks like Tenergy CR123's could be a very attractive, low cost choice.

I also picked up some "900"mAh 3v RCR123's from Tenergy. After I cycle them a few times, I'll test them for capacity against the rated value.

For the capacity test, what current should I use in order to fairly determine the capacity? I know some manufactures use as low as a 50 mA rate.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello JimH,

You sent me 8 Titanium CR123 cells. I came up with

1 @ 0%
1@ 10%
5 @ 20%
1 @ 40 %

I guess the postman used them a bit between your place and mine...

Manufacturers are suppose to utilize the standard 5 hour discharge to rate the capacity. This is a 0.2C discharge rate. You can get pretty close by using a 0.5C rate, but expect less capacity when you go to a 1C rate.

Tom

 

[JimH]

Thanks for the info, Tom.

I Just got some Tenergy "900"mAh Li-ions. That should put my selected discharge rate at 180 mAh after I cycle them a few times.

 

[Lightraven]

Here are my results for comparison:

Tonight, I ran an M6 HOLA with unused Surefire 123 batteries with outside air temp of about 54F degrees. The batteries have been stored for maybe 6 months.

The lamp burned brightly for 11 minutes 57 seconds, then quit rather abruptly--thermal shutdown?

I pulled the battery carrier out, and it was very warm. I rotated the batteries in their holders, they were hot to my fingertips on the in facing surface.

I gave the light a rest of about 20 minutes then started it again. It ran at a slightly dimmer, but usable brightness for another 5 minutes 42 seconds at which time it quickly dimmed too much to be useful--towards death.

The total runtime, with the 20 minute breather, is 17 minutes 39 seconds.

 

[nuggett]

I tested 50 batterystations with the ZTS and got 1 dud, they seem to run the M6 well, after about 6 minutes, they thermally shut down, then came back when cooled, but not for as long as I expected. I guess the thermal shutdown isnt good for the batts life.
I am trying a new batch of Pentagonlight batts after returning a box full for substandard performance (noticably dimmer output on hotwires) So far so good in the M6. When I first got the light, I ran it for 8-10 minutes straight and the powerpack got very hot with SF batts, no shutdown though and got satisfactory life.

 

[JimH]

I just retested all 40 of my new Tenergy CR123's using an Ansmann Energy Check LCD tester.

I got the same result as with the ZTS tester - all except one tested 100%

I then retested my Titanium batteries. This weeded out a few more weak cells. I'm now down to only 26 out of 40 that register 100%.

The Ansmann tester gives results in 10% increments and displays the battery voltage at the end of the test. Out of all Tenergy and Titanium batteries that tested 100%, the ending voltage for Titanium batteries was between 2.74 and 2.76, and the ending voltage for the Tenergy batteries was between 2.85 and 2.87 (consistently 0.1v higher than the Titaniums)

 

[AmondoTech]

Hello Everybody,

I have been reading this thread and am rather concerned.

I will be going to the factory next month and want to
address the consistency problems people are having at
that time.

We use a Cadex C7400 here at Amondotech and have been
getting consistent results with the Titanium CR213A
batteries in our tester.

If I just mention some people are having consistency
problems without hard data the factory will not know
what needs to be corrected. Could any of you send me your documented results.

JimH would you be willing to come by sometime with
your tester. I would like to do a parallel test where we randomly
take an equal amount of batteries from my stock. Also
If you could bring some batteries of any other brand
you feel is more consistent I will reimburse you for
the cost.

Then we can test the batteries simultaneously using
two different testers and two different brands and I
would have some good information to take to the
factory with me. This way I can make sure any
problems with the Titanium batteries can and will be
corrected.

Warm Regards,
Wayne
[email protected]

 

[JimH]

JimH would you be willing to come by sometime with
your tester.

Wayne,

I am currently using a ZTS tester and an Ansmann Enery Check LCD. They are giveing consistent results with each other.

I would be happy to come by and test batteries side by side. My schedule is relatively flexable, but after noon is definitely best. Send me a PM and we'll set something up.

 

[JimH]

I talked to SilverFox extensively this afternoon. We discussed test procedures and test results at length. Based on his results, I am convinced that the procedures that he has established are the most legitimate way to proceed.

His procedure is to conduct back to back tests until the tester gives the same result 3 times in a row.

Using the ZTS tester and the Ansmann Energy Check LCD tester alternately, I retested all of my new CR123's. This is a summary of the results.

Titanium CR123 - 9 out of 40 tested 100%
Tenergy CR123 - 39 out of 40 tested 100%
Streamlight CR123 - 17 out of 17 tested 100%

 

[mtbkndad]

I have been semi following this thread.

I am curious since I do not know much about batteries.
Can the circuit protection in the Titanium batteries in any way affect the tests if the devices are using pulse load to determine remaining battery life?
Is the software written to take into account anomalies that the PTC may create?
Would the test unit be able to automatically identify if batteries have PTC or not?
Has anybody done runtime tests on batteries of any brand that rate less then 100% and batteries of the same brand that rate 100% with actual lights testing light output to see if the results confirm the accuracy of these meters projections?
In a fully regulated light shouldn't a battery rated at 50% only give half the run time of a battery rated at 100%.
In an unregulated light wouldn't it have noticeably less light output?

Those of you in the know please explain, if you would be willing, how the PTC either could cause pulse reading and % projection problems or how it cannot if it won't.
I am just seeking to learn here.
The reason I am curious is I have been using Titaniums ever since the new ones came out and get very consistent runtime results in my NightCutter M60L and Gladiuses. I have had a couple of bad pairs or cells in the last 8 months or so but that is all. Batteries that were put into my Gladiuses that started blinking within 20 minutes of use. This has happened twice. Ironically it was the same night from the same purchase of batteries in both Gladiuses. Before and after that I have not had any problems.
With readings like JimH is posting I would think my runtimes would vary greatly but they do not.

Any information anybody can share to help enlighten me regarding my questions would be greatly appreciated.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Mtbkndad,

I have been semi following this thread.

I am curious since I do not know much about batteries.
Can the circuit protection in the Titanium batteries in any way affect the tests if the devices are using pulse load to determine remaining battery life?

No.

Is the software written to take into account anomalies that the PTC may create?

No. The PTC does not present a problem with the test algorithm.

Would the test unit be able to automatically identify if batteries have PTC or not?

No.

Has anybody done runtime tests on batteries of any brand that rate less then 100% and batteries of the same brand that rate 100% with actual lights testing light output to see if the results confirm the accuracy of these meters projections?

I am not running tests with actual lights, but am doing discharge tests on the batteries that test out at less than 100%. I am finding that not all batteries adhere strictly to the "standard" curves that the ZTS tester uses.

In a fully regulated light shouldn't a battery rated at 50% only give half the run time of a battery rated at 100%.

Only if the battery strictly follows the ZTS "standard" voltage curve.

In an unregulated light wouldn't it have noticeably less light output?

I believe the answer to this one is yes. The ZTS tester is looking at the voltage under load. The lower the voltage, the lower percentage of capacity remaining it registers. The lower the voltage, the dimmer your light will be.

Those of you in the know please explain, if you would be willing, how the PTC either could cause pulse reading and % projection problems or how it cannot if it won't.

The PTC needs a high current to heat up. The ZTS tester utilizes a pulse current that is not high enough, or long enough, to trip the PTC.

Tom

 

[mtbkndad]

Tom,

Thanks for the info.
I will be very interested in finding out how many batteries, and what brands, do not adhere to the standard curve the ZTS tester uses. I would also love to see tests done in real lights.

My concern is that without all of this information batteries that do adhere to the "standard" curve the ZTS tester uses will consistently test better then those that do not while not necessarily being "better" batteries.
This would limit the value of the tool for my purposes and make any reporting of information using this tester in a difinitive manner without supporting tests incomplete and rather unfair.

Possibly the Titanium's JimH tested are not as bad as they seem and the Tenergy's and Streamlight's are not as good as they seem in comparison in actual use. Maybe they are all pretty even.

I look forward to seeing the results of your tests.
I think when JimH and Wayne get together they could do the tests I mentioned with both testers on hand (% projection and actual runtime). That would be very interesting and I would love to see the results of it.

Take Care and Thanks again for the Answers,
Daniel
mtbkndad :wave:

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Daniel,

While I find it academically interesting to ponder the actual voltage curves used in the ZTS tester, I feel that the real benefit is in the ability to match your cells in a multi cell application.

If you load a M6 with matched cells you will get better performance than if you have a cell or two that is either stronger or weaker than the rest. The same holds true for 2 and 3 cell lights.

If you happen to use "name brand" cells, the ability of the ZTS tester to give you an approximation of remaining capacity is a very nice "extra," but I still think its strongest benefit is to be able to match the cells for multi cell use.

Tom

 

[NewBie]

Hello Lebox97,

Can you give us your test procedure?

I have heard that the battery recovery effect can trick the ZTS tester a bit. I believe they recommend doing two tests 5 seconds apart and going with the second test results.

Tom

If that is the case, they should modify their testers to operate in that fashion.

 

[lebox97]

the ZTS measures in increments of 10% 20% 40% 60% 80% 100% of capacity.
the ZTS-mini measures in increments of 20% 40% 60% 80% 100% of capacity.

re-thinking my test results on the variations I experienced perhaps (or probably) was due to the battery being on the threshold of the measured capacity increment?
ie. if the battery first tests as a 40% then as a 60% (or vice versa) - perhaps in reality the battery is close to 50%? (an 80% then 100% is closer to being a 90% etc?)

as silverfox/Tom is saying -
- I am most concerned about matching my own batteries for consumption (EDIT: and for safety!) since I have high drain incan devices. I have thus sorted the cells accordingly into groups of 20's, 40%, 60%, 80%, 100% - and now use them for different purposes (mission critical vs burn off the lumens/photons)
- I am only moderately concerned about the variations between cells I am getting from a particular brand - and will adjust my buying patterns accordingly.

 

[seery]

JimH - Where is the best place to buy the Andmann Energy check? How much do
they cost?

I REALLY like the fact it's 10% increments, not 20% like the ZTS MBT-1 I just
purchased.

And the voltage after the test is the top notch.

Anybody know the cheapest place to buy the SL batts?

Thanks.

 

[JimH]

JimH - Where is the best place to buy the Ansmann Energy check? How much do
they cost?

The only way to get one is to have someone in Europe send you one. I had a friend in Norway get me one and send it to me, but took an unexpected customs hit going into Norway.

Your best be would be to contact one of our CPF members in Germany and see if he will do you a favor. There are a lot of German sites that offer them, but, since my German is nonexistent, I had my friend order one fron an English site.

 

[TENMMIKE]

iv found this place in the UK , but they act like they ship to europe only , iv got some brit friends on this today , i should have one sent to me in a day or 2 http://www.tantronics.co.uk/acatalog/Ansmann_Energy_Check_LCD_1.html

JimH - Where is the best place to buy the Andmann Energy check? How much do
they cost?

I REALLY like the fact it's 10% increments, not 20% like the ZTS MBT-1 I just
purchased.

And the voltage after the test is the top notch.

Anybody know the cheapest place to buy the SL batts?

Thanks.