stephenk
Enlightened
I would think that 21700 flashlights would be more ergonomic (i.e. fits better in the hand) than 18650s? Sounds like a positive step forward!
Not necessarily. Higher capacity 18650 batteries tend to have less current potential. It is a trade off of capacity for amperage output. I'm betting that they will get the 21700s at about the same energy density of 18650s with higher current capability in the end... if they are spending billions making a huge factory I'm sure they are pouring a bunch of money into getting every bit of power possible out of these batteries at currents that they need to drive large electric motors. Will the new battery packs have more power than a same sized 18650 based pack? I doubt it will exceed that, but also it wouldn't surprise me if they just matched the same output or maybe 5% less with higher amperage capability which could actually work out to be more power under load than the 18650s do.The funny part is that 18650s still have a better size to energy density ratio. The move to this new size must be purely to save money.
Not necessarily. Higher capacity 18650 batteries tend to have less current potential. It is a trade off of capacity for amperage output. I'm betting that they will get the 21700s at about the same energy density of 18650s with higher current capability in the end... if they are spending billions making a huge factory I'm sure they are pouring a bunch of money into getting every bit of power possible out of these batteries at currents that they need to drive large electric motors. Will the new battery packs have more power than a same sized 18650 based pack? I doubt it will exceed that, but also it wouldn't surprise me if they just matched the same output or maybe 5% less with higher amperage capability which could actually work out to be more power under load than the 18650s do.
So using your theoretical reasoning, why not improve upon existing 26650 cells?
Because the market isn't there for them... yet. If they decided to use them in electric cars I would assume that they would push the envelope of that size battery to the max just like they have done in the past with 18650s.So using your theoretical reasoning, why not improve upon existing 26650 cells?
Per Elon Musk they decided to design a cell in the present as if there was no other existing format that would suit there needs. Apparently 21700 has the ideal capacity/discharge/charge/packaging specifications an electric car needs.
I would surmise a higher capacity 21700 cell would have less desirable discharge & lifecycle characteristics even if it would work amazing for us flashaholics.
Because the market isn't there for them... yet. If they decided to use them in electric cars I would assume that they would push the envelope of that size battery to the max just like they have done in the past with 18650s.
I'm guessing that there could be a "need" for a minimum amount of batteries in sets (series) in order to get the desired voltage and if batteries get too large in diameter it could be more difficult to wire them together.It's for cost reasons...as stated above. Froggy is on point...it will work "better" for electric cars and be cheaper, this is the real reason.
And if there is improvements to the chemistry and design they could also be incorporated into 18650 cells likewise such that the main difference is again related to size/volume.New info - the new 2170 cells will have all new state-of-the-art hardware and new battery chemistry! It may even be able to match/beat 18650s in energy density ratio!
Not necessarily. Higher capacity 18650 batteries tend to have less current potential. It is a trade off of capacity for amperage output. I'm betting that they will get the 21700s at about the same energy density of 18650s with higher current capability in the end... if they are spending billions making a huge factory I'm sure they are pouring a bunch of money into getting every bit of power possible out of these batteries at currents that they need to drive large electric motors......
Ditto
Friend was telling me about new Tesla X model. When he told me about the motor I didn't believe it and had to check it.
2 motors for combined power about 500 kW
Sure pack is big 90 kWh but these motors .... OMG
So you are talking about 6C peak power!!!!!
I am guessing the major factor was in fact high current.
I don't know what is the voltage used so blatant guessing game:
500V @ 500 kW = 1,000 A
500 V / 3.7 = 136 cells per module
90,000 Wh / (3.7 V * 5 Ah * 136) = 36 modules
1,000 A / 36 modules = 28 A/module
So 5 Ah cell has to be able to supply peak 28A current!!!!
(sorry my math is likely not accurate, kinda fudging it)
Per Elon Musk they decided to design a cell in the present as if there was no other existing format that would suit there needs. Apparently 21700 has the ideal capacity/discharge/charge/packaging specifications an electric car needs.
I would surmise a higher capacity 21700 cell would have less desirable discharge & lifecycle characteristics even if it would work amazing for us flashaholics.
It is entirely possible that both are true: better efficiency (whether cost-effective or otherwise) and Elon gets a bigger cut.Poor people. They still believe that switching to nonstandard form factor has something in common with optimizing. Elon Musk just wants bigger share of after sale revenue.
Nonsense. Whether the batteries in the car are 18650 or 2170, they are not user-accessible. It makes zero difference to the consumer if the cells use an old standard or a new one.It is the same as selling a car that consumes "proprietary" fuel.
Exactly. I have yet to see anyone here truly analyze this from an engineering point of view.Debates about the cells are quite useless without knowing the structure and chemistry of the cells. There is no reason to assume the construction is like anything we have seen in production. Nor no reason to assume he will not use some esoteric technology. There are many proposed technologies out there. Elon does not back away from using advanced technology.
It is entirely possible that both are true: better efficiency (whether cost-effective or otherwise) and Elon gets a bigger cut.
Nonsense. Whether the batteries in the car are 18650 or 2170, they are not user-accessible. It makes zero difference to the consumer if the cells use an old standard or a new one.
Exactly. I have yet to see anyone here truly analyze this from an engineering point of view.