The Nightsword project

[get-lit]

Here's what the XSTAGE 2000W is measuring at Min, Nominal, and Max power...

21.35V @ 70A= 1494.5W -> 76,660 Lumen
23.45V @ 90A = 2110.5W -> 118,203 Lumen
24.95V @ 110A = 2744.5W -> 150,009 Lumen

I thought the lumen output on the spec sheet was under rated, but this is more than I expected.

I may have to try the XBO 1600 W DHP lamp. It has the same arc gap as the XSTAGE 2000W but with more current in the <1900W power range, so it should have slightly more luminous intensity within that power range.

Determining actual power consumption based just on the spec sheet is difficult because the voltage changes as a factor of amperage. Also, the actual voltage measurements are often much different than spec.

The XBO 1600 W DHP is rated at 78A 21V nominal, with 56A to 85A current control range. With this, I estimate voltage to be 18.4V @ 56A and 22.3V @ 85A, with estimated power range 1030W to 1896W.

So theoretically, the XBO 1600 W DHP has five advantages:

1. It "should" have slightly more luminous intensity over the XSTAGE 2000W within the <1900W power range

2. It could be powered as low as 1030W, as opposed to 1495W, making it more versatile for portable applications

3. It's rated for 3000 hours as opposed to 1000 hours

4. The housing would be slightly more optically efficient due to smaller exhaust and retro-reflector sizing requirements, which would add an additional 3% output advantage

5. 1.5 lbs less total system weight (11 lbs vs 12.5 lbs)

The disadvantages are:

1. It costs 50% more

2. It has 45% less maximum output

So generally, the XBO 1600 W DHP would be more practical, less weight, slightly more efficient, and slightly more intense within the <1900W power range. While the XSTAGE 2000W should provide for 42% net additional maximum output when powered at 2745W.

This is just theoretical summary to decide whether to get the XBO 1600 W DHP for testing.

 

[BVH]

I would really love to know the Low, Nominal and High power Lumen numbers for the 1600 Watt so "yes" of course get the sample lamp for testing..... Easy for me to say since I'm not spending $800 for the lamp! I keep vacillating back and forth every time you post estimated performance numbers and the pros and cons of each of the two lamps. More Luminous intensity with the smaller lamp is going to provide "what visually" down range on the target versus the 2000 Watt lamp? (both at Nominal power) Let me throw this comparison out again that I did a few years back with the Maxabeam at 80 Watts and the Megaray at 150 Watts. The Maxabeam "spot" on the crown of a big tree at 900 Yards was brighter than with the larger spot of the higher power Megaray however, I could not discern that what I was lighting up was the crown of a big tree. With the Megaray, I could easily tell that I was lighting up the crown of a big tree even though the spot was a little less bright because it was bigger and there were many more Lumens down field lighting up the area surrounding the tree.

I don't like the thought of "giving up" Lumens down field just to have a slightly more bright but tiny spot. Is this sort of what were throwing around with the two lamps? Nearly 120,000 Lumens (at Nominal power) in a handheld Short Arc light is really just an amazing thing to think about. Do you think the 1600 Watt will provide around 70,000 Lumens? If so, that's a lot of Lumens to give up. I, personally, am not concerned with the big difference in lamp life as this will not be high use light for me. And a new 2000 Watt lamp will cost less than the 1600.

To bring up the Focal Length topic again: I remember discussing the beam quality some time back and based on the pics you posted showing the "spot" cross sections of the different beams, I determined I liked the longer focal length produced beam better because their intensity was more uniform throughout the beam cross section versus shorter focal length beams which had a brighter center tapering off at the outer areas. They were just a more impressive beam to look at. Will there be any significant beam quality differences produced by these two lamps?

I'd be more than happy to pick up half the cost of the sample 1600 lamp with absolutely no strings attached. Even if the light was never produced, I would be happy to do so. It's worth the cost just for the data and information you provide back to the group.

 

[get-lit]

BVH, what's also nice about the LFL beam is the lack of corona light that tends to wash out your view of what the spot is illuminating. To be clear, nothing is changing regarding the design with long focal length and retro-reflector, so the beam patterns will still be the same uniform beam with minimal corona that you prefer.

The arcs of these two lamps should be very similar. The arc gaps are the same and they're both the latest generation Xenon with various enhancements. When operated at 1900W, the primary difference should be that the XBO 1600 W DHP would have just a hair more luminous intensity with marginally less wide luminous area due to operating under slightly higher current. The current for the XBO 1600 W DHP at 1900W is 85A. The current for the XSTAGE 2000W when operated at the same 1900W is 81A. It's not a big difference but it is a slight advantage for the XBO 1600 W DHP.

What's really being compared is which lamp better suits the goal of the light. For output and efficiency that is better optimized for <2000W power under which this light would likely be used most often, the XBO 1600 W DHP is better suited. This has to do with the fact that the system design would have somewhat more efficient optical path, less total system weight, and lower power capability when needed.

The XBO 1600 W DHP is basically a 1600W version of the XSTAGE 2000W. All it comes down to is, do we want a lamp that operates under 1495W-2745W or a lamp that operates under 1030W-1900W. When both operated at the same power, the XBO 1600 W DHP has the edge theoretically. If the light is not likely going to be operated at more than 1900W, then the lower power lamp should be better suited all around. On the other hand, if 2745W capability is more important, then there are sacrifices in the <1900W range.

I am torn between the two. Both would be a ridiculous beam. 2745W kicks it up another notch but more into the realm of impractical, because how often are you going to be able to feed it that much power. If you're most often going to have 2000W on hand or less, the XBO 1600 W DHP is slightly better in output and is more practical due to less weight and less minimum power requirement.

(Notice the slight drop in intensity of the XSTAGE 2000W next to the XBO 1600 W DHP when both powered at 1900W)

This is theoretic based on the specs for the XBO 1600 W DHP. To be sure, I'd have to test it. I'll go ahead and order one to test and compare. I'll also post the Luminous Intensity Distribution Patterns for the lamps I've tested. When modeling the beams, I've found that it's not enough to measure the Luminous Intensity Distribution Pattern for a lamp of one class and use that pattern for other lamps in its class, because the patterns vary too much among each lamp. The patterns vary even under different powers with the same lamp.

 

[BVH]

The rotating pics are very helpful! Yes, I noticed the slight dimming of the 2000 Watt lamp compared to the 1600 Watt lamp when both driven at 1900 Watts. I'm still not sure of what the user will see if he or she were to use one light with the 2000 and one with the 1600, both powered at 1900 Watts and shone one at a time from the same location onto the same target down range. With the 1600 and it's slightly brighter hot spot but "only 70,000 Lumens, versus the 2000 Watt with it's slightly dimmer hot spot but with 118000 Lumens, how would you describe what the user will see with each? The 50,000 additional Lumens have to go somewhere and make the scene more dramatically lite up, right?

Beyond all that, I think you're spot-on about being able to supply over 2000 Watts to the light in a practical manner/use. I don't think that will be practical. So the 1600 is probably the most overall efficient design for practical light use. The lighter weight of the light is a big bonus.

The spot for the NightSun above I assume is at the same degree of focus produced by your proposed reflector as are the rest of the lamps and not at the minimum 4 degree focus when installed in the NightSun? setup, correct?

 

[get-lit]

Okay I see where the confusion is.. You're going by 70,000 lumen for the 1600 W, which is correct for classic 1600W Xenons.

How I'm measuring lumen output is by taking lux measurements at each axial angle and calculating the total lumen output. This method has produced lumen results consistent with SMH-850 mercury lamps and classic XBO 1600 W/HS lamps on hand. I'm coming up with 76k to 81k Lumen among four SMH-850 lamps. The SMH-850 has a calibrated measurement of 80k Lumen, so it's fairly consistent. I'm coming up with 67k to 72k Lumen among three classic XBO 1600 W/HS lamps, which is listed at 70k Lumen.

I'd been suspect of the XSTAGE 2000W being listed at only 80k Lumen because it's not consistent with Xenon efficacy in this power range and the newer tech lamps are supposed to be even more efficient. Using the same testing method for the XSTAGE 2000W, I'm coming up with 77k Lumen @ 70A, 118k Lumen @ 90A, and 150k Lumen @ 110A. I've taken the measurements three times to be sure.

The XBO 1600 W DHP doesn't have lumen listed. Because it's the same new tech and parameters as the XSTAGE, I'm assuming it would have the same relative efficacy as the XSTAGE, so the XBO 1600 W DHP should be on par for lumen. So for this preliminary assessment to determine whether the XBO 1600 W DHP is worth testing, I'm assuming the same power consumption with the same tech would produce the same Lumen output. And I'm assuming the XBO 1600 W DHP would have slightly more luminous intensity with relatively narrower luminous area than the XSTAGE 2000W because it operates at slightly higher current at the same input power with the same arc gap. This is because luminous intensity and inverse luminous area are relative to arc gap and current.

This makes the XBO 1600 W DHP worth testing to find out for sure, but only if it's desirable to design a light around this lamp provided it tests out as anticipated. It would be an expensive test and I needed to see if there would be interest in a light better optimized for the <2000W power range first.

Edit... The NightSun is calculated with the stock lamp in the Enhanced NightSun configuration, not the Nightsword configuration. I threw this in the mix to help you compare because you have that one. Of course this has to be taken with a grain of salt because I don't have the Nightsun lamp to test the actual luminous area and Luminous Intensity Distribution Pattern.

 

[BVH]

Okay I see where the confusion is.. You're going by 70,000 lumen for the 1600 W, which is correct for classic 1600W Xenons.

The XBO 1600 W DHP doesn't have lumen listed. Because it's the same new tech and parameters as the XSTAGE, I'm assuming it would have the same relative efficacy as the XSTAGE, so the XBO 1600 W DHP should be on par for lumen. So for this preliminary assessment to determine whether the XBO 1600 W DHP is worth testing, I'm assuming the same power consumption with the same tech would produce the same Lumen output.

OK, I think I'm with you now. You're estimating Lumens-per-Watt efficiency to be on-par-close, with both lamps. If this pans out with lamp testing (if you go that way)(I'll contribute to lamp costs), then all the PRO's you listed for the 1600 DHP lamp really stand out and I vote going this route. For my enthusiasts use of this light, I don't see feeding any lamp more than about 1800-2000 Watts. That power level gives me about an hour of run time with my LiFeP04 pack.

1 Vote for a design around the 1600 W DHP lamp.

 

[get-lit]

Seems the lamp isn't well stocked. I'll first have to contact Osram to ensure it won't be phased out.

 

[get-lit]

The Osram rep does not recommend DHP lamps based on experience. They're for non-moving digital projectors, while XSTAGE is more stable and less expensive. So really there's no choice but to stay with the XSTAGE 2000W. So next I'll be working on the design of the portable power supply for this lamp.

 

[BVH]

It's sometimes kind of nice when a difficult choice is made for you.

 

[LED1982]

I keep vacillating back and forth every time you post estimated performance numbers and the pros and cons of each of the two lamps. More Luminous intensity with the smaller lamp is going to provide "what visually" down range on the target versus the 2000 Watt lamp? (both at Nominal power) Let me throw this comparison out again that I did a few years back with the Maxabeam at 80 Watts and the Megaray at 150 Watts. The Maxabeam "spot" on the crown of a big tree at 900 Yards was brighter than with the larger spot of the higher power Megaray however, I could not discern that what I was lighting up was the crown of a big tree. With the Megaray, I could easily tell that I was lighting up the crown of a big tree even though the spot was a little less bright because it was bigger and there were many more Lumens down field lighting up the area surrounding the tree.

I don't like the thought of "giving up" Lumens down field just to have a slightly more bright but tiny spot. Is this sort of what were throwing around with the two lamps? Nearly 120,000 Lumens (at Nominal power) in a handheld Short Arc light is really just an amazing thing to think about. Do you think the 1600 Watt will provide around 70,000 Lumens? If so, that's a lot of Lumens to give up. I, personally, am not concerned with the big difference in lamp life as this will not be high use light for me. And a new 2000 Watt lamp will cost less than the 1600.

The spot for the NightSun above I assume is at the same degree of focus produced by your proposed reflector as are the rest of the lamps and not at the minimum 4 degree focus when installed in the NightSun? setup, correct?

I totally agree with rather having larger spot as opposed to a pencil beam brighter spot. Wow a minimum of 4 degrees??? For some reason I was always under the impression that this Nightsword was a 1 degree spot just like Maxabeam? No clue why I was thinking of this light like a Maxabeam when numbers like 80,000 and 120,000 lumens are being thrown around. I suppose because I've only just skimmed this thread because so much of it is over my head, this is definitely the big boy's table, I only feel worthy to sneak a post in because of the 2 months of silence lol.

It totally sounds like get-lit has plans to produce this light, just torn between a few power/efficiency decisions, maybe this is a stupid question but does that mean the light would be 'Ignorant Friendly?' What I mean is that I've heard it said that for a lot of the more powerful HID lights you really have no business owning one if you are not pretty knowledgeable about HID, lest you blow yourself up. If you ever did produce these for sale get-lit would they be dangerous for the ignorant? If so I would have no business even considering one, boy there's a lot of power in these things. My thinking though is that any hints of you possibly producing the light for sale means that it must have adequate safeties in place. Just my 2 cents, at these insane power outputs I'd cast my vote for maximizing efficiency plus shooting for the shortest start up time, since ALL versions would have SICK power anyway! But BVH makes a good point too it's not really a grab & go light to be so worried about quick start up.

get-lit is in NY, if these were ever for sale, and I ever thought about pulling the trigger on one, shooting down to NY to check one out would be no big deal, just thinking out loud lol.

 

[BVH]

I believe I was assuming that for apples to apples comparison all lamp shots were made at the respective lights 4 degree focus point irregardless of how narrow the light was capable of going - which for the NightSun is 4 degrees. I believe the NightSword goes much narrower.

 

[LED1982]

I believe I was assuming that for apples to apples comparison all lamp shots were made at the respective lights 4 degree focus point irregardless of how narrow the light was capable of going - which for the NightSun is 4 degrees. I believe the NightSword goes much narrower.

Oh ok got it, got excited thinking it was 4 degrees of intense center beam when I read that. When I woke up today I said to myself this light is out of my league who am I kidding, 2000 watts lol!! Back to being a spectator. For awhile I wanted to comment get-lit that you have the coolest avatar in this whole forum!

 

[get-lit]

Peak intensity falls within 1 degree, corona with 2 degrees. I'm sorry but personal issues are putting this off for a bit. LED1982 it would be a pleasure to have you visit when it gets to that stage.

 

[Juggernaut]

Any updates in the last few months? Only reason I bother signing into CPF any more lol :twothumbs

 

[get-lit]

Sorry for the delay, I didn't want to put this thread at the top of the queue without any new info. I've had no time this past year but I've recently made some headway.

The prospect of designing the boost and ignition stages of the power supply had been a bit daunting for me because electronic circuitry was not at all my strong point.

What makes it more difficult is that Xenon power supply design is practically a clandestine art; the information is not easy to come by. There are power supply design guides made available by lamp manufacturers, which provide for general outlines for specific criteria to be met, but the guides are all based on rectifying AC input into high voltage DC (commonly 400vdc) which makes things much easier down the line for the boost and ignition stages, particularly for the transition from boost stage to DC operation. There's various methods of meeting the criteria, some methods vary greatly. It's taken me time to fully understand how they all work and to understand how their advantages and disadvantages compare. I wanted to have a full working knowledge of the adopted standards and proposed solutions. I'm currently in the later stages of applying all considerations to arrive at a new ideal circuit for this unique application.

Designing and manufacturing a Xenon power supply from the ground up was not what I had in mind when I began this project. I was somewhat overwhelmed when it became apparent this would be necessary for an ideal solution to the application, but now I'm finding this to be just as fun as other aspects of the project.

As far the debate between the XSTAGE 2000W and XBO 1600 W DHP, I'm definitely confident the XSTAGE is the way to go. Hindsight, in my comparative estimations I forgot to include the fact that the marginal advantage in amps of the XBO 1600 W DHP (when powered under the same wattage) would be somewhat offset by slightly less efficiency. And a power supply that can handle the XSTAGE 2000W, can also handle a 1600W lamp.

Also, there is a specific reason why power supplies have a limited output range. As I'm designing the power supply from scratch, I have in mind a method to adapt the power supply to also be used with practically unlimited output range under max, so it would likely be useable even with 50W lamps. So I'm no longer concentrating my efforts on a single lamp.

This will be slow going for a while, as I'm still clearing up some outside things going on. I look forward to when I can ramp this project all the way up.

 

[BVH]

Thanks for the detailed update get-lit. I'm still as anxious as I've ever been for this to come to life. I'm in!

 

[The_Driver]

Nice update, but I'm left wondering how you can possibly develop this from the ground up and reach the point where it is suitable for production in any resonable time frame. Are you an electrical engineer? Why not just outsource the custom electronics to someone or some company who have experience in this field? I say this especially because of the safety concerns with high-voltage high-power electronics. The complexity seems very, very high to me.

 

[vestureofblood]

It's sometimes kind of nice when a difficult choice is made for you.

Especially since going with the 1600w would probly have added more time to the project We've all been standing by the mail box impatiently waiting for this like 6 years now LOL. Keep up the awesome work GL!

 

[eyesonfire]

I think the Nightsword Project is a long drawn out April fools joke

 

[BVH]

Oh yee of little faith....