The Tint Snob Thread

[iamlucky13]

Sure, I am looking forward to seeing more about these new very high CRI emitters too

Me too. Since Ma tumba said in his group buy thread that he was told the BC 5mm is getting discontinued, I would think the most likely replacement is some other 5mm form factor product - perhaps a 5mm version of their 98 CRI VTC series, or perhaps a higher power replacement for the current 5mm product.

After all, Nitecore apparently found a 5mm LED that can produce 45 lumens in the Tube (perhaps just the 70mA version of the Nichia GS being overdriven?). If Yuji can get in that same ballpark with a high-CRI product, it might have a lot more appeal than their current 6-8 lumen product.

 

[jon_slider]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

CRI and color temperature have no direct relationship.

true
however in off the shelf flashlights, High CRI LEDs, back in 2013 used a High CRI XPG or High CRI XPL that were just 80 CRI and came in Warm 3000k
later on, the 4500k Nichia came along with 90+ CRI
recently we have started seeing some 5000 and even 5700k 90+ CRI LEDS
but so far, 6000k LEDs still dominate the Cool Bright market, with about 65-70CRI

Early on in my flashaholism, I acquired a prejudice against cool white LED's, but this thread has adjusted my perspective. My cooler lights seem more useful now.

I resemble that learning curve, Im only just beginning to accept that cool white has a place, not with grilled chicken, but with cars .

I also think that at different times of day, it helps to have a flashlight about 25% cooler, than the ambient light, to make it look "white" at that CCT.

Very weird picture having the surface temperature of the Sun 5505°C+273=5778°K. Where did they take 7000°K from?!

Im mostly just trying to illustrate that CCT of flashlights will look different at different ambient lighting, don't get too caught up on the exact definition of sunlight CCT., candle light CCT, Moonlight CCT, etc.. go for the general principle, that at different times of day, there are different ambient color temperatures.

I like a rosy tint and neutral white CCT, at a neutral white time of day, and a cool CCT, at a cool white time of day.. I also like a warm tint, for relaxing before bed, the way a sunset, and the warm glow of a fire makes me feel.

 

[Modernflame]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

however in off the shelf flashlights, High CRI LEDs, back in 2013 used a High CRI XPG or High CRI XPL that were just 80 CRI and came in Warm 3000k
later on, the 4500k Nichia came along with 90+ CRI
recently we have started seeing some 5000 and even 5700k 90+ CRI LEDS
but so far, 6000k LEDs still dominate the Cool Bright market, with about 65-70CRI

I'm very interested in exploring the high CRI market more fully. I think my best emitters are at about 80 CRI. I'd like to start with a Nichia 219b P60 style drop in.

 

[jon_slider]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

Im a big fan of the 4000k and 4500k N219b LEDs Ive tried.

the middle light has N219b 4000k:
I took a lot of photos to try and capture what I actually see with my eyes. these are pretty close to the relative colors I see when comparing side by side.
left to right: 3000k N219c 90+CRI, 4000k N219b 90+CRI, 6000k XP-G2 70CRI

Im interested in High CRI at several different Color Temperatures
here is an XPL 3000k on the left below:
the other two lights are the same as above, although as you can see the exposure is slightly different, its as close as I could get:
left to right: 3000k XPL 90CRI, 4000k N219b 90+CRI, 6000k XP-G2 70CRI

You can see comparing the 3000k lights on the left, in the above photos, that the N219c is more pink than the XPL which is more Yellow.

Im a big fan of Nichia, and now we also are seeing 5700k N219b and 5700k N219c. Both are great choices for the Cool White times of day. Its a good time to be a Cool white, tint, and CRI snob.

here is a pic that compares a 5700k N219c 90+CRI, to sunlight..
practice noticing the color differences, particularly red tones

Snakesin Photo linked thread also has an interesting conversation about tint, and the use of high CRI flashlights to simulate sunlight.

We are not looking at a difference in Color Temperature. We are not looking at a difference in Tint either. The difference between the photos is almost entirely a difference in CRI..

Point being, as an evolving tint snob, Ive begun to realize its not Cool White that I dislike, its Low CRI. Its not warm or cool tint I dislike, its green or yellow tint. Theres tint, and then theres Tint.. depends what we mean when we say neutral.. do we mean color temperature, or Tint. Neutral color temperature is around 4500k, neutral Tint, can be at any color temperature. Therefore Pure White can be at any color temperature, as long as its Tint falls on the BBL. There is neutral Tint, pure neutral white at 4500k, also neutral Tint, pure cool white at 6000k. I think its a great thing that we can now have High CRI in Cool white. I like the option to use neutral or cool, depending on the white balance of my brain at the time of day, and environment.

candle color temperature, for candle brightness
sunset color temperature, for sunset brightness
noon color, for noon brightness

My opinion: The Nichia LEDs tend to fall closer to the BBL and tend to be less Yellow/Green, than the Cree LEDs, for any given CCT and CRI

 

[degarb]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

Im a big fan of the 4000k and 4500k N219b LEDs Ive tried.

the middle light has N219b 4000k:
I took a lot of photos to try and capture what I actually see with my eyes. these are pretty close to the relative colors I see when comparing side by side.
left to right: 3000k N219c 90+CRI, 4000k N219b 90+CRI, 6000k XP-G2 70CRI

Im interested in High CRI at several different Color Temperatures
here is an XPL 3000k on the left below:
the other two lights are the same as above, although as you can see the exposure is slightly different, its as close as I could get:
left to right: 3000k XPL 90CRI, 4000k N219b 90+CRI, 6000k XP-G2 70CRI

You can see comparing the 3000k lights on the left, in the above photos, that the N219c is more pink than the XPL which is more Yellow.

Im a big fan of Nichia, and now we also are seeing 5700k N219b and 5700k N219c. Both are great choices for the Cool White times of day. Its a good time to be a Cool white, tint, and CRI snob.

here is a pic that compares a 5700k N219c 90+CRI, to sunlight..
practice noticing the color differences, particularly red tones

Snakesin Photo linked thread also has an interesting conversation about tint, and the use of high CRI flashlights to simulate sunlight.

We are not looking at a difference in Color Temperature. We are not looking at a difference in Tint either. The difference between the photos is almost entirely a difference in CRI..

Point being, as an evolving tint snob, Ive begun to realize its not Cool White that I dislike, its Low CRI. Its not warm or cool tint I dislike, its green or yellow tint. Theres tint, and then theres Tint.. depends what we mean when we say neutral.. do we mean color temperature, or Tint. Neutral color temperature is around 4500k, neutral Tint, can be at any color temperature. Therefore Pure White can be at any color temperature, as long as its Tint falls on the BBL. There is neutral Tint, pure neutral white at 4500k, also neutral Tint, pure cool white at 6000k. I think its a great thing that we can now have High CRI in Cool white. I like the option to use neutral or cool, depending on the white balance of my brain at the time of day, and environment.

candle color temperature, for candle brightness
sunset color temperature, for sunset brightness
noon color, for noon brightness

My opinion: The Nichia LEDs tend to fall closer to the BBL and tend to be less Yellow/Green, than the Cree LEDs, for any given CCT and CRI

Try testing on powder blues to a cool xpl hi. Also, forget how well you see colors at a given luminance, lux, lumen level. Instead, start thinking, how well do I see colors-all colors, not just red- at a given current level.

I tested a jaxman 4000k nichia, against the new imalent 4300k, and the cool 6500 xpl hi. Conclusion: brightness per watt, matters. Though the xpl hi 4300K renders reds well enough, and still a v5 bin.

Notes, and things to remember: - The imalent cool, actually renders all colors better than a 2012 era xpg, or any xml I own.
-Both warmer tints blow away the cool on reds.
-The nichia renders red, significantly better than the xpl hi 4300, who blew away the cool on reds.
-The cool xpl is better in high light conditions, better at waking a person up.
-The xpl hi renders maroons and purples better than the nichia.
-Both warmer tints butcher powder blues. The xpl is almost colorless. The nichia is not as bad, but horrid in comparison to the cool xpl on powder blues.
-Probably more dirt in tree bark, than you think. So, ignoring the greys and blues in the grass and bark, outside colors look richer.
-At at least 75 percent drive level of the xpl hi, maybe 70 percent as efficient, all 20 mm optics: the xpl hi blows away the nichia for color rendering, outside above 10 foot-cool or warm. 475 lumen jaxman cannot compete with a tighter focused, 900 lumen cool (claimed 1000) or warm xpl hi, which is probably over 800 lumens.
-Inside, to be honest, the nichia, still has a sleepytime night feeling, while the cool turns a kid room play area into outdoor daylight.
-I am as prone to ocd red obscessions as anyone. But I still think wearing two lights is best for any situation where light is key: one cool and one warm-headlamp and worn on my left wrist. Always best to cover both bases.

Maybe a higher efficient Nichia could compete. Still that pesky throw per watt in any given diameter reflector. Most single 18650 light use 20mm reflectors (I would squeeze a 26mm and xpl hi, for best runtime.) Probably, the nichia would compete better with an xpl or xml. Though, I own no xmls with quite as good of a tint as my xpls or xpl hi's.

Tints have come a long way. I think better, more interesting comparisons would be to show 2008 rebels v. lux 3 v. 2012 xml v. 2014 xml2 v 2017 xpl2 80 cri. More for fun.

I just have no patience reading light reviews that don't mention the tail cap current, among other missing data like lux readings over the hours of test. Thermal path, etc. But current reading rules, and everything else is relative.

 

[iamlucky13]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

Try testing on powder blues to a cool xpl hi
....
-Both warmer tints blow away the cool on reds.
-The nichia renders red, significantly better than the xpl hi 4300, who blew away the cool on reds.
-The cool xpl is better in high light conditions, better at waking a person up.
-The xpl hi renders maroons and purples better than the nichia.
-Both warmer tints butcher powder blues. The xpl is almost colorless. The nichia is not as bad, but horrid in comparison to the cool xpl on powder blues.
....
-I am as prone to ocd red obscessions as anyone. But I still think wearing two lights is best for any situation where light is key: one cool and one warm-headlamp and worn on my left wrist. Always best to cover both bases.

Something just clicked when reading this I should have picked up on from your previous posts.

Most of us are worried about cases where we tend to be sensitive to specific color quality issues like accurate skin tones or hiking through the woods. Ample red in the spectrum and restraint in the greens is important for this - we notice lack of red or extra green in skin tones instinctively because these are unhealthy signs.

On the other hand, you're a painter, if I remember right. You work with a different - in fact broader pallet. While most of us worry about getting good red rendering, it's just as important for you to have good blue rendering. Your powder blues are exactly where you need a healthy dose of blue in the beam.

But consider how most of our LED's work. They're a blue LED, which is good even though not a particularly deep blue. Then we take some of that blue and phosphor convert it to a range of green through red tones. The more of that conversion we do, the more blue we're taking away. High CRI lights really can diminish some of the colors you need to do your job most accurately.

It makes much more sense to me now why the cool XP-L's are working well for you, and even if you can get the brightness you want in a high CRI light, I suspect you still should stay in the 5000-6000K range, not 4000K. Or carry two lights as you say.

Unfortunately, even cool CCT LED lights are very weak at violet/purple. I first noticed the LED weakness there several years ago doing a quick photo comparison of a CFL to an LED illuminating some flowers: the purple flowers in the bunch looked duller under the LED, where as one of the phosphors in the CFL must have had a fairly strong purple emission line.

The only way I know of to get around that is violet-based LED's, which are uncommon, and have worse efficiency. Yuji has some in their VTC series, but only mid-power surface mount types. They also sell them mounted on ribbons or 11" linear PCB's, but they're expensive, and any light built using these will be something you'd want to mount on a stand, not carry in your pocket.

 

[iamlucky13]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

One more thought: I've been thinking about getting some of Yuji's ~1000 lumen COB's. They're too big for a pocket light, but based on the specs, I think they would pair well with a 700mA Buckpuck, a medium-sized heat sink, and an 18V tool battery for the electronically inclined.

These are their blue LED based line, not violet, but they're available in a 5600K version at 95 CRI that might still be an improvement over warmer tones for cases where color accuracy across the full spectrum is important.

I would only need one or two though, and Yuji only sells them in 5 packs.

I don't know when I'll get around to it since I'm pretty busy right now, and there's a rumor that Yuji is also making a new 5mm product I'd like to wait for in case it seems useful for anything. However, I might put together a small group buy if anyone is interested.

 

[neutralwhite]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

Yuji group buys are great things, IM IN!.

One more thought: I've been thinking about getting some of Yuji's ~1000 lumen COB's. They're too big for a pocket light, but based on the specs, I think they would pair well with a 700mA Buckpuck, a medium-sized heat sink, and an 18V tool battery for the electronically inclined.

These are their blue LED based line, not violet, but they're available in a 5600K version at 95 CRI that might still be an improvement over warmer tones for cases where color accuracy across the full spectrum is important.

I would only need one or two though, and Yuji only sells them in 5 packs.

I don't know when I'll get around to it since I'm pretty busy right now, and there's a rumor that Yuji is also making a new 5mm product I'd like to wait for in case it seems useful for anything. However, I might put together a small group buy if anyone is interested.

 

[degarb]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

Something just clicked when reading this I should have picked up on from your previous posts.

Most of us are worried about cases where we tend to be sensitive to specific color quality issues like accurate skin tones or hiking through the woods. Ample red in the spectrum and restraint in the greens is important for this - we notice lack of red or extra green in skin tones instinctively because these are unhealthy signs.

On the other hand, you're a painter, if I remember right. You work with a different - in fact broader pallet. While most of us worry about getting good red rendering, it's just as important for you to have good blue rendering. Your powder blues are exactly where you need a healthy dose of blue in the beam.

But consider how most of our LED's work. They're a blue LED, which is good even though not a particularly deep blue. Then we take some of that blue and phosphor convert it to a range of green through red tones. The more of that conversion we do, the more blue we're taking away. High CRI lights really can diminish some of the colors you need to do your job most accurately.

It makes much more sense to me now why the cool XP-L's are working well for you, and even if you can get the brightness you want in a high CRI light, I suspect you still should stay in the 5000-6000K range, not 4000K. Or carry two lights as you say.

Unfortunately, even cool CCT LED lights are very weak at violet/purple. I first noticed the LED weakness there several years ago doing a quick photo comparison of a CFL to an LED illuminating some flowers: the purple flowers in the bunch looked duller under the LED, where as one of the phosphors in the CFL must have had a fairly strong purple emission line.

The only way I know of to get around that is violet-based LED's, which are uncommon, and have worse efficiency. Yuji has some in their VTC series, but only mid-power surface mount types. They also sell them mounted on ribbons or 11" linear PCB's, but they're expensive, and any light built using these will be something you'd want to mount on a stand, not carry in your pocket.

Examining the diffraction grating, the violet does appear missing. Maybe, I am wrong, but that shade of color seems missing from the paint pallet of about 6 companies. I grabbed 150 close shades in all families, overlapped the close swatches in progressive order glued onto one cardboard page for exam under various lights. The closer, the better. Seeing the difference is the test. Anyway, fortunately, there was a hole, I believe, in violet-no such colors in the 6 pallets I looked at. I have other decks that I didn't search, but not for cut up.

 

[jon_slider]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

Im really enjoying the details being discussed. I keep hoping they will include pictures!

I agree it is good to have a selection of lights at different Color Temperatures. And also that LEDs are not full spectrum. Some have more red, some have more blue, and neither has everything sunlight has.

Im interested in selecting 3 LEDs closest to, or below, the BBL
the sm303, sw45, and sm573 LEDs in this image by maukka interest me in particular:

the most used or carried of my current accumulation atm are:

In my bag: NoonSun/Bonfire,
18650 powered triple XP-G2 6000k 70CRI,
up to 1300 lumens of Cool White, used most above 100 lumens, and during the day. It looks white at that time, it looks blueish at night.
I would like to upgrade to 5700k 90+CRI


In my pocket: Sunset/Campfire,
18350 powered Triple N219B 4000k 90CRI,
used indoors in the evening mostly, at 25-50 lumens. It looks white at that time, it looks pink during the day.
Im very happy with this LED, I have spent the most time with it, and for a while I thought it could be the Only One.. LOL. I lied, to myself ;-)


On my nightstand: Moonlight/Candlelight.
AAA powered XPL 3000k 90CRI,
used at 0.25 lumens mostly. I can't tell how yellow it is in the dark, and at that low brightness. During the day it is very yellow.
I like the wide hotspot of the XPL for close range. But I find the CREE XPL tint excessively yellow and prefer the NICHIA 219c sm 303 because it has a richer orange color.


Low CRI Cool LEDs do fine with blue and green, but they don't make food look as appetizing as High CRI Neutral LEDs. I would prioritize CRI over Cool, but prefer to have both

btw, my cat Loves Sardines. He does not care what CRI or CCT light I shine on them.
I think he is either color blind, or prioritizes his nose over his eyes

Low CRI, lots of blue green, not much red:

High CRI, more red, more tasty?

 

[degarb]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

To fill in my collection, I need to get a high cri 5700 too. I had to look around to find a good single 18650 Nichia, Jackman. I am not holding my breath for a Yuji. If I make my own, I will choose the 80 cri xpl2 v6, DigiKey, most likely. One person had a link to some Cree 90 cri Xp-l or xml. Though, I suspect the Cree research money is going to the Xp-l.

So, does anyone have a good list of Nichia based lights, the rough specs, the price? List bare emitter source too?

 

[degarb]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

One more thought: I've been thinking about getting some of Yuji's ~1000 lumen COB's. They're too big for a pocket light, but based on the specs, I think they would pair well with a 700mA Buckpuck, a medium-sized heat sink, and an 18V tool battery for the electronically inclined.

These are their blue LED based line, not violet, but they're available in a 5600K version at 95 CRI that might still be an improvement over warmer tones for cases where color accuracy across the full spectrum is important.

I would only need one or two though, and Yuji only sells them in 5 packs.

I don't know when I'll get around to it since I'm pretty busy right now, and there's a rumor that Yuji is also making a new 5mm product I'd like to wait for in case it seems useful for anything. However, I might put together a small group buy if anyone is interested.

Keep me posted on how this project progresses. PM me.

I love my infinitely dimmable buck puck 700s. Probably have 3 or so ready for next wristlights or headlamp build. They rock on 2x18650. I love fact that they are 90% efficient, minimum runtime is 8.5 hours, with a measured 374 lumens, yet my dimmer allows a slight unnoticed step-down for 10 hours or slightly down for 12 or really long. The choice is mine.

Ledsupply has another new buck driver with a variable sense resistor at 95% efficiency. But looks like a higher cutoff so haven't tried it.

Use only protected cells, and install a switch, to avoid reverse polarization. MM cells.

The only downside of series is I have not a safe plan for charging them in the light.

 

[jon_slider]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

So, does anyone have a good list of Nichia based lights

18650: power maukka reviewed the Jaxman E2, it has pwm, but a very nice 5700k LED
CR123 powered: HDS puts some nichias in their lights, 4000k 5000k, and even 5700k
AAA powered: Lumintop Tool, Maratac, offer 4000k nichias
Eagletac and Malkoff offer nichias also. I have issues with their PWM, as well as HDS, but not everyone cares.

illumn sells a very nice pink 4000k Nichia, that a friend put into a PT18 (NoPWM) for me. I LOVE the tint!
I recently tried a 3000k N219c sm303 that a friend modded into a light for me.. I love that LED too!

I have no personal modding experience, LED sources I'm not too strong on.. gunga is very savvy in that area, maybe PM him.. He does excellent work.

 

[noboneshotdog]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

I purchased the Jaxman E2 recently just to see what Nichia 5700 high CRI was all about.

To be 100% honest the 5700 is just a bit to cool color temp for me. I guess I enjoy warmer temps these days.

I would not classify this as necessary c/w, just cooler than what appeals to me anymore.

This was my first Nichia purchase. Wonder what cheap Nichia light I can buy next? Want to purchase some cheapies before taking the plunge and committing to a HDS or something similar and not loving the tint.

 

[staticx57]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

Reylight Pineapple

 

[maukka]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

This was my first Nichia purchase. Wonder what cheap Nichia light I can buy next? Want to purchase some cheapies before taking the plunge and committing to a HDS or something similar and not loving the tint.

Some cheap ones:
Astrolux A01, S41
Lumintop IYP365, Tool, Worm
Manker E21
BLF-348

 

[noboneshotdog]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

Some cheap ones:
Astrolux A01, S41
Lumintop IYP365, Tool, Worm
Manker E21
BLF-348

Thanks gentlemen. Is there a favorite light/tint emphasis on tint of the suggested lights?

 

[jon_slider]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

Thanks gentlemen. Is there a favorite light/tint emphasis on tint of the suggested lights?

they each have different lumen levels, some have PWM, some do not
I put the Lumintop Tool w Nichia at the top of the list
it comes in Titanium, Copper, and Aluminum
the aluminum Tool w Nichia is on sale This is a tail switch Clickie light. I am not affiliated in any way, just telling you the best deal I would make if I did not have some already.

personally, I carry what for me, is the cream of the crop, a copper Maratac AAA w Nichia. It is a twisty light.

both have the same 3 modes, MLH sequence, 25/3/80 lumens, with 4000k Nichia 219b 90+CRI, no PWM, NoCircuitNoise, regulated output in the Maratac, but not the Tool, 4000k is Slightly warm, not really great in the sun, but really good indoors in the evening.

5700k would be for working on cars, I would use 4000k indoors still.

I don't have a black anodized tool but for size, here are the two lights Im suggesting

 

[noboneshotdog]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

^^^^
Awesome. Thanks Mr. Slider. :thumbsup:

 

[jon_slider]

Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

welcome
honorable mentions of lights for Entry Level Tint Snob include Nitecore Tip, and Manker Lad, both w Nichia 219c, USB, 4000k, nopwm...
heres my LAD


pic is a link to more of my Lad impressions, if you're bored
meanwhile here is the beam of the Lad w Nichia 219c on left, Maratac Nichia 219b in middle. Both 4000k..
both are good, choice of a single button w USB, or twisty interface w Eneloop AAA

I prefer the rosy tint of the middle N219b, over the yellow tint of the Lad N219c, far right is Astrolux M03 whose tint I disprefer, it is unreliable and flickers. The middle light Maratac, is in my pocket