What lighting best replicates sunlight?

KITROBASKIN

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"The Colour Rendering Index (CRI), defined by CIE Publication 13.3, is widely used for assessing the colour rendering characteristics of light sources. It was first published in 1965 after fluorescent lamps had emerged, and was last improved in 1974. Colour science has progressed considerably since then, and recognized improvements are available for many of the components used in the CRI."

http://www.cie.co.at/index.php?i_ca_id=981
 

ssanasisredna

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I understand when your experience with lighting is limited to your house and the internet that you may develop inaccurate knowledge and simply take what you read at face value. However, some of us actually work in lighting, talk to the researchers who study aspects such as color "Quality", and have actually worked with designers, architects and the like on lighting and what works.


I think you need to research what CRI is, because you are 100% wrong.
http://www.illinoislighting.org/graphics/c-white.jpg
Anyone even remotely intelligent can tell which one of those is 100 CRI and which ones are not.

CRI is EXACTLY a quality measure.


http://wavelengthlighting.com/blog/...quality-on-measuring-good-light-after-the-cri excerpt, "Traditional lighting manufacturers appreciate its predictability (or less charitably, its inaccuracy), so it has remained virtually unchanged for 50 years."

It has so many issues that CQS has been developed because, "
CQS, on the other hand, considers a number of factors in trying to define the way a light source reproduces colour. These include chromatic discrimination, human preference, and color rendering (the method evaluates 15 colors to more accurately span the range of normal object colors)."

https://www.nist.gov/pml/sensor-science/optical-radiation/color-rendering-light-sources Excerpt, "Unfortunately, the CRI only evaluates color rendering, or color fidelity, and ignores other aspects of color quality, such as chromatic discrimination and observer preferences. The Color Quality Scale (CQS) is designed to incorporate these other aspects of color appearance and address many of the shortcomings of the CRI, particularly with regard to solid-state lighting."

"Because the CCT of the reference illuminant is matched to that of the test source, the CRI score can be perfect (Ra= 100) for reference illuminants of any CCT, even though actual color rendering is degraded at extreme CCTs."

"The CRI uses the Von Kries chromatic adaptation correction in its calculation. It is outdated."

Not all of the world thinks that a 2700K hot wire is the ideal light source. In Asia preference and what they consider "quality" leans towards higher CCT even if the "CRI" is lower. Again, CRI is only a comparison to a reference, it is not an absolute measure of "QUALITY".

In fact, if you actually did research in lighting and were up on the latest, you would know that measured human preference for lighting, which is the best measure of "QUALITY" where lighting is concerned is not on the black body but under it. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15502724.2015.1029131?src=recsys&journalCode=ulks20

You are quite welcome to light your house with "Perfect" 100CRI 1800CCT light bulbs but personally, I am going to stick to the 3500K and 4000K high CRI sources, that while not "100" CRI, provide better color discrimination for blues and greens that I like to have in my environment.

p.s. that R is CRI is RENDERING, not quality. It is a comparison of how well a light source "RENDERS" w.r.t. a reference black body under 5K, a calculated solar SPD over 5K.

I will leave you with this to read, not as an advertisement but to understand that CRI is not the be-all and end-all, http://www.xicato.com/sites/default/files/documents/ThePreferenceForColor.pdf and again an excerpt: "In one of the scenarios more than 80% of lighting professionals preferred displays lit with theVibrant Series test modules. It grabbed their attention. "
 
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Enderman

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Never said it is the be all end all.
It is still a quality measure because for two lights of equivalent temperature, a higher CRI one will make colours look better.
Everyone with decent eyesight can tell the difference between an LED light and an incandescent/sunlight when shining on some colourful objects.
That is because of the spectrum actually being complete for incandescent and sunlight, not fragmented with spikes like it is for LEDs.
We're also not talking about "extreme CCTs" just the regular 2700-5000 that light bulbs come in.
It seems to me like you're in denial trying to make yourself look good when really you don't understand that LEDs should not be used for colour work.

PS. an abbreviation like CRI does not need to have a Q in it to be a measure of quality. ppi also has no Q in it but is still a measure of quality. So are like a million other abbreviations.
 

ssanasisredna

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Never said it is the be all end all.
It is still a quality measure because for two lights of equivalent temperature, a higher CRI one will make colours look better.

WRONG! Did you read the link for the Xicato wide gamut LED sources. Wide gamut sources of a lower CRI will look better than a narrow gamut high CRI if done properly.


Everyone with decent eyesight can tell the difference between an LED light and an incandescent/sunlight when shining on some colourful objects.

WRONG! Doesn't matter if they are "colorful", it matters if they know intimately what the colors look like under the other light source. When you get to 90+ CRI, even then it becomes difficult and at 93-95+ very difficult. Most people have significant bias in what they like as well, so by tailoring the light to what they like, you can sway opinion. Without intimate knowledge of what the color look like under a reference source, most people would have a hard time picking out what type of light source is what.

That is because of the spectrum actually being complete for incandescent and sunlight, not fragmented with spikes like it is for LEDs.

Nope, standard phosphor converted high CRI leds have a blue spike which looks big, but that is only because spectrums are always shown in the power domain. If they were shown in the lumens domain, the spike would be quite small. Soraa using a UV excitation puts their peak predominantly outside the visual range. High CRI LEDs actually have smooth and continuous spectrums. You do realize that reference high CCT light sources for color work are often nothing more than fluorescent bulbs with phosphors and they to have small (and sometimes large) dips and spikes? Incan/Halogen is not even a consideration in this market as the CCTs used are 5000K and 6500K.

That said, there are ANSI/ISO color boxes on the market know for critical work that are just as good as the fluorescent units and have very low metamerism indexes.

It seems to me like you're in denial trying to make yourself look good when really you don't understand that LEDs should not be used for colour work.

No, you are just doubling down on ignorance. Light sources like the Xicato modules are indistinguishable from incandescent sources. At 4000K, you would be very very hard pressed to find a light source with a higher CRI. Add to that at 2700K and 3000K sources with wider gamut area than incandescents and halogens provide a better "quality" of light as determine by human preference. Incandescent and halogen are near useless for visual color work with lots of blue content. Hence why the high CCT reference sources based on fluorescent and other technology. A 4000K high CRI LED is going to do a much better job.

Of course, people doing professional color work (printing, etc.) for the most part don't rely on their eyes exclusively any more. They use reflective spectrometers which of course use LED light sources.





PS. an abbreviation like CRI does not need to have a Q in it to be a measure of quality. ppi also has no Q in it but is still a measure of quality. So are like a million other abbreviations.

No, but it does have an R for rendering ... accuracy w.r.t. a reference source, but light quality is much more than just being like another light or even sitting on the black body. There are no natural sources of mid-cct black body light. You have fire on one end, and daylight on the other. Everything in the middle including moonlight, sunrises, sunsets, etc. has modified spectrum


Never said it is the be all end all.

Debatable but a moot point as is suggesting halogen or incandescent .... since the OP's stated goal is have colors look like they do under daylight sun. That high CCT/high CRI LED is going to do a much better job of than then your halogen/incan suggestion.
 

chillinn

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I'm not going to disagree with either of you, as I have left the world of color correction behind almost 2 decades ago for something higher in the electromagnetic spectum that pleases me much more to obsess over than color, which is audio. But I wanted to share my anacdotal experience from that era of my life.

Of course, people doing professional color work (printing, etc.) for the most part don't rely on their eyes exclusively any more. They use reflective spectrometers which of course use LED light sources.*

Well, yes, certainly calibration is essential... but even with perfect calibration, it's really tricky going from a client's original art, to RGB computer screen, to a color proof (depending on what kind of color proof), to press, and having the colors match... tricky to impossible. The client art and the color proof have massively wider gamut than a 4 or 6 color press (which uses little dots to trick our eyes into seeing color that is actually not in the press inks). Somehow, the pros make it work. It is sciency-art, or an artsy-science.

Incandescent and halogen are near useless for visual color work with lots of blue content.*

Again, I can't disagree with that, but in my experience in printing prepress, matching blues were never (or rarely ever) the problem. Flesh tones are where I found my personal animus. I have seen color pros adjust flesh tones to acceptable reproduction in seconds, when I would obsess over what I was looking at for hours and still end up with orange people. Flesh tones, as you're probably aware, have a lot of red.

My understanding is even the best LED has trouble with accurate reds.

But I love this dialogue (correction: polylogue?) If everyone agreed, we'd be far worse off regarding the unattainable truth, and it is unattainable... we can only reduce our margin of error. And one truth is... I'm not even sure color exists (what does it weigh? what does it taste and smell like? is it even really there or just in our interpretation of our perception?). Ok, please carry on, but we must strive to speak to the arguments and avoid speaking to the individual. We have feelings! Arguments do not.
 
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Enderman

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You can get close to daylight reproduction using other non-LED lights that have 100 CRI, such as what is used in the movie industry.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KH9N26b5O2c/SQiMtFznxBI/AAAAAAAABL8/_UTHCPSOH3E/s400/hmi.png
Here is a HMI lamp, these are used to simulate sunlight.
Here are a few other types of lights:
http://www.thehurlblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/HIve_spectrum_sm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SB8opNy.png
http://nofilmschool.com/sites/default/files/uploads/2014/02/Light-Wavelength-Chart-616x326.jpg

Basically, just ignore what that other guy is saying, "CRI is not quality" and "high CRI leds have smooth spectrums" lol what a joke
Looks like he's salty because he doesn't understand how light spectrums works. Higher CRI, the more complete the spectrum is and the closer to the real colours in sunlight it will look.
Halogen, incandescent, HMI, plasma, all those are better options than a high CRI LED.
There's a reason there are no 100 CRI leds ;)

Here is an HMI lamp making sunlight for a movie :)
14ffaf4cfe093ce2da904b395b9dc53a.jpg
 

ssanasisredna

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chillin,

Thank you for the knowledgeable, thoughtful and experienced reply. Working in the industry it's too easy to get caught up in the science and forget about the basics, which is the "emotion" w.r.t. to light ... for which as you state, there is no absolute truth.

Tom
 

ssanasisredna

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Enderman,

Generally, generally I don't mind educating those who are less knowledgable when they are interested in learning.

There is a concept in psychology called the Dunning-Kruger effect. In the interest of saving time, I have copied the first paragraph from the Wikipedia article:

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately."

Where CRI, light "quality", color interpretation, even the recording of movies is concerned, this effect applies to you.

This statement, "Higher CRI, the more complete the spectrum is and the closer to the real colours in sunlight it will look." shows gross ineptitude on this topic. A high CRI 5500K (or similar) source will cause colors to be rendered like they will be under sunlight. This is completely different from the rendering of colors at <5000K. 5K and over CRI is based on a simulated sunlight spectrum that is somewhat even, but not "flat" and not blackbody unlike CRI under 5000K.

Do you know why they want to simulate sunlight as perfect as possible for movies? It's because everything in their processing stream, including film if they are using it, the filters on the sensors in digital cameras, the color space conversion algorithm in the digital camera, etc. are all tailored for accurate recording of color IF they use spectrum like the sun and since they often use natural sun, this is the best choice. When film was the only choice, you were stuck. With digital recording, cheap storage, and new techniques, there are explorations into superior illumination methods and image capture methods.

Do you even know what the CRI is of an HMI lamp? Hint, it's not 100. Its 90+. HMI is a trademark of OSRAM. Don't believe me that it's not 100? Here is a link for everyone to check out: Family data sheet The only way to get to 100CRI with a HMI lamp would be with a lot of filtering (which is done). That is something that can be done without filtering with fluorescents as you just need to mix a lot of phosphors to get the right output that you want. Hint, you can filter a LED too (or mix phosphors or LEDs, etc.)

Your repeated comments about the "spiky" nature of LEDs for also shows your lack of knowledge w.r.t. to human perception of spectral power density. Don't worry, it's common in people who are not typically translating spectral density into something meaningful in terms of what humans will see. That is probably why you posted a bunch of irrelevant spectral plots I assume. Note that your HMI plot had "spikes" ... some actually in areas where the eye is quite sensitive which is why it takes a bit of a hit in CRI .... sort of like the red deficiency in plasma lighting.

It's all understandable. I can tell that you don't have formal training in this area and don't have the application experience of say chillin.

I have a master's specifically in electro-optics. I (yes me! -- the salty guy), have co-authored published papers on color space conversion with multi-spectral illumination (image capture) and adapting color space conversion algorithms to variable spectra to improve perceived image quality. By a twist of fate (okay they made me an offer I could not refuse), I have done a lot of work in illumination and lighting the last many years and have been fortunate to converse with AND LEARN FROM some of the recognized experts in the area of color perception and quality. I don't consider myself an "expert" in this area. They are. I trust their expertise in this area, not some guy who send links to spectrum that I can probably draw from memory with pretty good accuracy.

No LED is 100CRI. It's almost impossible to obtain in any artificial light source that is not a true black body. Fortunately, this is a case where "close enough" really is good enough. It's not like a 2700 kelvin black body is common in nature (it's not), and sunlight is highly variable and if you measured it, would rarely be "100 CRI".

How good can an LED get? This good: http://www.xicato.com/technology/color-rendering Check out the CRI (not just Ra, but all values out to 15) of the Artist series. They are 98+ across all the color targets. What's also cools is the V95 series with the 120 gamut area index. Drop the CRI a bit ... makes a light that is preferred by HUMANs .... that's real quality. Your lack of knowledge will likely consider the spectrum in this data sheet "spiky" http://www.xicato.com/sites/default/files/documents/DDS XTM Artist Series 160520.pdf but to someone who knows how SPD relates to color spectrum, they will see this as a very smooth graph that accurately replicates a tungsten source, Especially in the critical areas where the sensitivity of the eye is high and the ability to discern tone differences is highest.

If you are truly interested in this topic, I suggest doing some research. The Lighting Resource Center (Rensselaer) and the solid state lighting metrology section at NIST are great places to start. Once you have digested those sites in detail, I can suggest some deeper reading that will provide more insight into human visual perception and spectrum.

I apologize to the OP for letting this get off track, but I think you have been provided with some good options for your usage.

Enderman, unless your post is related to a specific aspect of fulfilling the OPs requirements and/or links to professional research papers that may be of interests to the OPs requirements, I will not be replying to any more of your posts.
 
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ssanasisredna

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It has a 3 hour rated life. Yes you read that right 3 hours. To get the efficiency up while delivering a reasonable amount of blue, it needs to run the filament about as hot as possible. The efficiency is pretty tolerable considering it is a filtered incan bulb. Without the filter, it's around 35LPW.

The OP was also looking for something that was not such a heat generator.


 

KITROBASKIN

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Original post:
One of my hobbies is fountain pens and inks.
I used to have fluorescent tubes as overhead lighting. It made my ink colors look a bit off as compared to how they looked outside under direct or indirect sunlight. (Probably because fluorescent lighting tends to emit at discrete frequencies) Then I upgraded to LED lighting with a high CRI . Bridgelux 3000K 97CRI emitters. It's better, but I think the colors still look a little funny. For example, I noticed that yellows and oranges have this eye-burning fluorescent highlighter glow to them. Maybe it is because LED lighting has a lot of energy at blue and yellow?



Any other forms of lighting suggestions? Maybe a different color temperature?

Yet this thread has gone from 13 watt Ottlites to a 3-hour-runtime incandescent, including professional lighting costing extreme amounts of money. But the links and the disagreements have yielded such interesting information! It is hoped that we can all walk away with a better understanding and let go of the bad feelings generated from trying to convince others to agree with our personal beliefs.
 

KITROBASKIN

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beanbag

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Xicato modules (4000k) have no peak to speak of.

You can buy a Bridgelux 90+ CRI emitter for $10 plus shipping and a driver for about the same. It's a cheap way to try, at least at lower lumens.

OK, so I already have the Bridgelux 3000K 97+ cri emitters from before. The lighting does feel "natural", but now that I think about it, my paper is kind of tinted yellow by it. I don't have a halogen for comparison.

I'm now looking at these two LEDs:
Xicato has 4000K "artist" ones, which are something like 97+ CRI, high GAI, and high R(whatever) numbers across the range. The drawback is they cost about $30-40 each.

Bridgelux has 4000K "class A" emitters that are 93 CRI, no R numbers given, and GAI 80. (They say that you don't want too high a GAI value) In their literature, they talk about "user preferences" and "vivid color", so I don't know if that means this is some kind of a "cheater" spectrum that makes colors look excessively bright. These only cost $8.

Do you think there will be a noticeable difference between these two? Or will it be that case that you can only barely tell the difference when doing side-by-side comparisons?

I'm ok with having "mid-afternoon sunlight" for lighting, and not necessarily "noon, directly overhead" lighting. But do you also have a LED recommendation in the 5000K range? I think the Yuji ones are all the way up to 5600 K, and I think some of their R values are not so good.
 
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JoakimFlorence

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Something else many people may not be aware of, sunlight is actually more yellowish than the color of a perfectly correlated blackbody color temperature would be. That's what happens after being attenuated all the way through the atmosphere due to Rayleigh scattering. Natural sunlight also contains higher ratio of cyan to shorter blue wavelengths. The curve does not quite have the same shape, if we were to look at a spectral graph.


OK, so I already have the Bridgelux 3000K 97+ cri emitters from before. The lighting does feel "natural", but now that I think about it, my paper is kind of tinted yellow by it. I don't have a halogen for comparison.
That's simply because the LED does not contain the shorter wavelengths that would be required to activate the optical brighteners in the paper. What you are seeing is the natural color of the paper.

This is one of the differences between standard blue chip and violet chip LEDs, besides from CRI.
 
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ssanasisredna

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Something else many people may not be aware of, sunlight is actually more yellowish than the color of a perfectly correlated blackbody color temperature would be. That's what happens after being attenuated all the way through the atmosphere due to Rayleigh scattering. Natural sunlight also contains higher ratio of cyan to shorter blue wavelengths. The curve does not quite have the same shape, if we were to look at a spectral graph.



That's simply because the LED does not contain the shorter wavelengths that would be required to activate the optical brighteners in the paper. What you are seeing is the natural color of the paper.

This is one of the differences between standard blue chip and violet chip LEDs, besides from CRI.


If you normalize a blackbody curve and an AM1.5 solar spectrum (direct + circumsolar which is what you experience in the environment) at 530-550nm, then the solar spectra and the blackbody curve match almost perfectly from 450 to 630nm. The blackbody has more energy below 450, solar more above 630. While there is a higher "cyan", deep blue ratio, that deep blue is where the eye sensitivity is low. The difference between the two lights is about a 2.5 step McAdam ellipse away. You could notice that difference if they were side by side, but would have a hard time knowing which was which in the absence of the other.

100CRI at 5600 is sunlight.

w.r.t. LEDs

Bridgelux does a 5000K, 90+ CRI. Odds are you are going to be quite happy with the light. This will be a good color if you have a mix of sunlight (windows) and interior lighting while you are working. 4000K is definitely not mid-day sun, but is a pleasant light. You can always start with a small Bridgelux and upgrade if want more light or something you perceive to be better. You will not really have anything for comparison as almost no-one has ever seen truly high CRI at 4000K, but it is a nice light.
 

ssanasisredna

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That's simply because the LED does not contain the shorter wavelengths that would be required to activate the optical brighteners in the paper. What you are seeing is the natural color of the paper.

This is one of the differences between standard blue chip and violet chip LEDs, besides from CRI.


Good point.

Beanbag, are you using pure white paper or high quality art paper? Good quality art paper usually avoids whiteners but not always.
 

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