I think the real problem with HDS isn't pricing.
Who's going to replace Henry when he retires?
This is where brands like Surefire really shine; it's not contingent on one person. So long as the company is around, they will honor the warranty.
HDS lights have never been cheap. They've always been of the utmost quality though.
Considering I still use the two I bought over a decade ago regularly (one a Ra, before the HDS branding), I think the costs ameliorate well over time.
I bought a Rotary a couple of years ago, and it wasn't cheap. I expect to be using it for the foreseeable future as well.
I don't think they are overpriced. I think they offer value and ROI, if they fill a need in your life or workflow. There aren't a lot of options in that space.
If you don't need them and could get away w/ a cheaper Chinese torch, I'm sure they seem overpriced. Everyone has to make their own decision there.
Or you could just complain about it to the winds, because they hold the same space in the market they always have and quite a few who have bought consider it a sound purchase for a fair price. That's not going to change.
I think these comments are a bit disingenuous, though. While they've never been cheap, they're certainly become more expensive (even adjusted for inflation) for what is...the same light. THAT is what people are talking about. Everyone here agrees they're willing to pay a premium price, the discussion on where does that value start to diminish.
The point many of us are making is that HDS is currently charging a very high price for a product that is absolutely hamstrung by the limitations of the CR123A battery, which was 100% fine 20 years ago, but it's now 2024.
While I understand the boutique shoppers will essentially keep buying, regardless of anything, the push back here is mostly from the Made in USA/tactical crowd - ostensibly the HDS base. The HDS "claim to fame" was that it was
literally bullet proof, and made in the USA. We're the ones starting to question what is going on with HDS, because many of us have other Made in USA brands that, frankly, are more reliable, user serviceable, and offer better performance. If I'm stuck with the CR123A size format (since even their other formats won't overdrive the LED past what a single CR123A can handle), a Malkoff Bodyguard or Elzetta Alpha are way, way better options.
They aren't offering enough emitter, material, and body configurations to truly be a boutique brand, so is their path forward banking on the rotary UI alone?
It seems the boutique shoppers don't really care about the durability or Made in USA factor as much as the tactical crowd, so it's this really weird space HDS has moved into.
Yes, HDS lights are reliable. I once had a 18650 Rotary Tube that failed because the wire inside the tube became loose. There is only one light that failed less than HDS: Elzetta never failed.
HDS has
minor quality issues though, but those issues don't compromise reliability. I've ordered two HDS Rotaries recently.
- The lowest setting is different on both lights.
- Moving the Rotary knob is harder on one light than on the other (you need more force to move it).
- Both lights have rather big dust particles or other dirt on the reflector and on the inside of the lens. It doesn't affect the beam.
I have no problem with those minor quality issues. Although if HDS wants become a boutique light brand (which I doubt they would want) then those issues need to be addressed.
The price is upper limit I think. Nevertheless I'm ready to spend $400 (~) on a HDS Rotary because:
- The UI is utterly perfect. And then the programmability. I think the HDS is the only flashlight that is reliable AND programmable.
- HDS flashlights come in a very good selection of LEDs.
- The size and weight of the 123 Rotary is exactly right for me.
- The raised button is not too soft and not too hard, it is exactly right.
- HDS flashlights neither look flashy nor aggressive, they look modest and I like that.
I think this is a bit of an important point, too. HDS is miles ahead of the Chinese brands for reliability, but Elzetta and Malkoff are, frankly, ahead of HDS, and that's fundamental to the fact that single mode lights with user serviceable parts are peak reliability.
The primary reason I ended up waiting on the current HDS offerings (outside of wanting a single AA format) is the uncertain long-term support, and the requirement of needing to send in the light to have the single wear item replaced - the tailcap boot. I can order a replacement switch and boot from Malkoff for like $8, spend 3 minutes, and be up and running. Elzetta sells replacement tailcaps. Screw it on, and 3 seconds later, I'm fine. Broken lenses? A few bucks and a few minutes later, I'm up and running with both brands. Both Elzetta and Malkoff work with a Thrym, which works amazing with a handgun.
And, for anyone who has read through ALL these HDS threads, there's a VERY non-zero number of "how long is the return time? I sent a light in..." posts. You do NOT see that in the Malkoff and Elzetta threads. If anything, you'll see, "My old [product] died, but they sent me a replacement." People aren't sending lights in for fixes and adjustments...which IS a thing with HDS.
And, that's the problem I'm getting at: HDS is wanting to straddle this line between dead-nuts reliable tactical products and boutique products, but they're not enough of either. There are more reliable products out there (you're never going to have a Rotary as simple as a single mode light), and for the money, you can get a literal shelf queen of a fancy, exotic material light.
Definitely hard to beat the Rotary mechanism. I believe the current price right now is on par with the product, there isn't anything else quite like it and the design is very unique. I would like to see a couple improvements and that would be better clip options and user replaceable tailcap button.
I guess we will see what happens for the new product/pricing when it gets released
Yeah, overall, I'm waiting on the new offerings, but that's also why I think now is a good time to be vocal about criticisms.
If HDS wants to be a boutique brand, they have a LOT of things that need to change, but just the same, if they want to be a go-to for the reliable brand, they NEED to address user serviceability. Right now, they're neither fish nor fowl, but purporting to be both.
At the price point, the Haiku uses older emitters and a UI that, arguably, isn't nearly as intuitive as the Rotary. I HATE three mode clicky lights- simply my opinion.
Comparing what you get for the money with both is valid simply from a value standpoint. I don't see anyone whining and complaining about the price of the Haiku on the McGizmo threads.
I will also argue these men engineered and built industry changing products and the price is worth it simply to support what they've built from scratch. No one forces anyone to buy a McGizmo or HDS. One can start his own competing brand, engineer something groundbreaking, and give it away for free if he deems fit.
"Whining and complaining."
What a mature, nuanced opinion.
I've noted, instead of addressing any of the opinions in this thread, you simply insult and write people off.
That says more than you probably think.
