HDS Systems #23

Gather App
Candle Power Forums

Help Support Candle Power:

jarobi said:
These are hobbyist and luxury goods. The rotary has arguably the best UI out there for an EDC. They are not built to a price point.

HDS can and will charge what the market will bear. FWIW, have you priced a Haiku lately? Even modern Surefire?
Click to expand...
I think that argument holds up better for special metal Anduril flashlights than HDS.
HDS doesn't sell itself as a hobbyist product NOR luxury good; they sell themselves as a very reliable, durable tool. They don't have the configuration options hobbyists want, nor do they have the ultra premium fit, finish, and QC a luxry goods buyer would want for their "shelf queen."
HDS isn't competing with the Haiku or any of those other high priced collectible goods made to sit on a shelf or be shown off, their competition is more in line with Malkoff, Elzetta, and Surefire. They are meant to be used, and used frequently. Haikus d Outside of price, they have almost nothing in common with the hobbyist/luxury goods you're grouping them with.

I don't have an issue paying more for a quality, US made product, but value still exists. HDS offers a robust product with a great UI. While the rotary is a bit unique in that realm, the question starts to become, "Is the rotary UI worth $200+ alone?"

Their pricing has gotten so expensive that you're literally categorizing them amongst the collectible brands - for no other reason than their cost. They are not precisely sculpted and machined decorative objects to match your fancy Swiss watch and Tesla. HDS has never been a conspicuous consumption brand.

Have I priced a Surefire lately? I picked up an EDC1-DFT within the last year, and it was about half the price of a rotary. Surefire prints their own boards, makes their own reflectors, has in-house engineering and manufacturing, etc. It's not like they cut corners or make a shoddy product - and they offer great customer service and a fantastic warrant. I've got a pair of Elzetta Alphas in the single 16340 sizing, and I can get two of those in different configurations with pocket clips and/or a Thyrm for less than a single rotary. Getting a Malkoff CR123 body and a SET of M61, M61L, M61LL with a VME head is about half the cost.

That I can a Surefire for a LOT less is a weird comparison to invite, as it just shows how insanely of a poor value HDS has become.

That's a lot of really high quality, ultra-durable tools I can get for the same money. While the Rotary offers a unique UI, single and double mode competitors offer user serviceability and longer-term warranties, so you could argue you're getting a more durable/reliable product. And, that's the issue here; for the tactically minded, US made brands, they're moving themselves into a very odd market share. It's an ultra premium price for a product that isn't offering better durability nor performance.

The HDS is a nice light, but it's not a perfect "safe queen" light, and I think pricing it with those kind of lights is just not a great plan. Of course, HDS is free to do as they'd like, and chase any market they want...

It just seems antithetical to the entire brand to become a "luxury good" instead of remaining a working tool.

For the most part, the R&D was done decades ago, and they probably should have more than recouped the costs of that. Paying well more than inflation-increased prices for almost the same product from 10-20 years ago...

I don't say any of this to dog on HDS, but more as just concerned musings, because I'd love for HDS to be around making lights for another several decades. I think they have a neat product. But, as someone who seems to be their target audience, it's really hard to pull the trigger on one...
 
You're grinding the wrong axe here, they will not go down in price. Have you priced hand-assembled and/or made items in other USA industries? Look at selvege denim. PNW boots such as Nick's or White's. Do these companies also owe the consumer a huge price drop, even if employees can no longer earn a living?

A $200 flashlight is a luxury item. HDS does not owe us a huge price drop. Henry has worked and built a great product which has the demand to justify the price. At the end of the day, we vote with our wallets.

The Surefire comment in fact a good comparison. Price for what you get with R&D costs recouped is valid, as well as the large amount of product they build. I will not engage you further. You're not getting a Rotary for $150. None of us are, unfortunately.
 
jarobi said:
You're grinding the wrong axe here, they will not go down in price. Have you priced hand-assembled and/or made items in other USA industries? Look at selvege denim. PNW boots such as Nick's or White's. Do these companies also owe the consumer a huge price drop, even if employees can no longer earn a living?

A $200 flashlight is a luxury item. HDS does not owe us a huge price drop. Henry has worked and built a great product which has the demand to justify the price. At the end of the day, we vote with our wallets.

The Surefire comment in fact a good comparison. Price for what you get with R&D costs recouped is valid, as well as the large amount of product they build. I will not engage you further. You're not getting a Rotary for $150. None of us are, unfortunately.
Click to expand...
[As an aside to the poor faith "I will not engage you further..."
Please don't take the ball so the rest of us can still play...

Why come to a forum, leave a post, and then say you're not interested in a conversation?

So, anyway, for the others looking to have a conversation...you know...the reason you come to a forum...I'll gladly keep talking with them, even if we're just ruminating ideas.]


This is not how markets work.
If something ceases to be a good value proposition, no one buys it.

Prices only increase so long as people will pay. Plenty of things have come down in price, long term, especially electronics. The HDS rotary is not brand new IP hitting the market, so it's harder to justify R&D costs (e.g. when Surefire made a new reflector head for their turbo lights).
I mean, consumers don't OWE companies purchases. You're looking at this entirely backwards. Companies need to compete in the market.

And, I'll wager you're not from the gun world. $200 for a safety related item isn't a luxury purchase. If you NEED a light to not accidentally shoot the wrong person, $200 for a life-or-death item isn't that bad. You just NEED something that WILL work. Most people aren't going to risk a life on a $20 Chinese consumer electronic. People want a high quality, reliable product they can depend on. They understand that will cost more than simply a "mostly reliable" Chinese product, and people are willing to pay that premium.

Most people would agree that if you have a firearm for self-defense, you NEED an illumination device. Most people aren't going to recommend getting the cheapest gun you can. You want whatever is the most reliable gun you can get for the best price. Same with lights for self-defense. There is a floor for the "my life could depend on this working" tools, and people accept that. That doesn't mean they're willing to pay "whatever it takes."

That's not even to mention people who need lights professionally. That's like telling an auto tech that a quality ratchet is a "luxury item" because it's $200, when you can get one for $10 at Harbor Freight; it's completely missing the context and purpose. Heck, do enough wrenching at home, and a $200 ratchet is more of a necessity than luxury (as the cheaper ones break more often).

That's the market HDS entered into, with a product for those exact people, with such needs, and their pricing, performance, and overall featureset is making them a poor proposition for that market in 2024. They're becoming a light that is more expensive than a handgun...with 300 lumens...and a UI that isn't the best thing for a high stress environment.

Meanwhile, for half the price, Surefire is offering a range of US made products, while Malkoff and Elzetta sell lights that I could throw through a window - all with a UI that's perfect for a panicked, high stress situation.

If they want to become a boutique brand for tech bros or EDC fashion people, that's their prerogative. I wish them luck, and I hope they succeed. I think their product is very cool, and I hope it sticks around. Maybe that's their only market niche moving foward...because who else is going to pay for the US made light entry price, and pay all that extra money for a nice UI that's not great in a serious situation? Certainly not professionals. And, the firearms community is likely going to have a hard time recommending such an expensive option for a handheld light. That WAS their bread and butter community these last two decades.

And finally, no one is saying we want $150 Rotaries. I clearly said $400 is a fair price if I could get a 4000K AA rotary. No one here is complaining that Rotaries charge a premium price. I think most of us agree they're worth a premium price. We're arguing as to WHERE EXACTLY that point is. If they come out with some new battery compartments and drivers, I think $400 is perfectly fair. We're saying that over $400 for essentially the same light that's been on the market...a decade?...that's a poor value. It's a nuanced argument, but not too complicated.

Taking the attitude that Henry can just do whatever he wants, and we will all gladly smile and clap is not helpful to HDS. Many of us here are the exact people that comprise the HDS market, and when your market starts telling you things are going in the wrong direction, that's important to note. We're not here because we want HDS to fail, we're hear because we want HDS to be successful. That's why we provide constructive criticism.

Again, maybe we're at an inflection point, and HDS will need to reshape themselves from being a (literally) bullet proof light for serious users, to being a novely UI brand that offers fun configurations for collectors. If that happens, I may find myself as no longer part of their target market, and I can live with that. Their new emitter equipment might be a sign of them recognizing this, as they can increase the emitter options (a move that satisfies the collectors).

But, just the same, if that ends up happening, I'm perfectly content to keep relying on Malkoff's SST-20 stash for the next decade, haha.
 
I equate HDS flashlights to Snap-on tools. Both are meant to be used and have excellent warranty and support; but both cost much more than the average market price for alternatives.

Take this torque wrench for example. It costs many more times than other electronic torque wrenches. One could say they can get a cheaper electronic torque wrench, sets of adapters, heads, etc and still spend less than the cost of one Snap-on torque wrench. Really how much more R&D is needed for this type of tool? Even the marketed “Power Interruption Technology” is likely just heavy duty springs to prevent loss of power during a drop.

Granted, Henry and Hogo don’t have vans driving around to their clients offering support, repairs, and new products like Snap-on; their product and support are excellent and cater to those who are willing to pay the premium for their particular product.
 
tongkang said:
Is this current running model that we all can buy now?
Click to expand...

Yes, that's a current model. You find it under "custom", NB27.

It really is a pleasure to the eyes. I use it for an hour or two every night at home.
My EDC beater is a NB35 Rotary. I think the NB35 is more suitable for daytime use than the NB27.
 
Fuchshp said:
Yes, that's a current model. You find it under "custom", NB27.

It really is a pleasure to the eyes. I use it for an hour or two every night at home.
My EDC beater is a NB35 Rotary. I think the NB35 is more suitable for daytime use than the NB27.
Click to expand...
Yes very nice tint
 
Personally, I would hate to see HDS go from a high quality, competitively priced "Made in the USA" product to an overpriced boutique brand that caters to people with more money then sense, and unfortunately, the current trend in prices seems to be pushing them steadily towards the latter
 
HDS lights have never been cheap. They've always been of the utmost quality though.
Considering I still use the two I bought over a decade ago regularly (one a Ra, before the HDS branding), I think the costs ameliorate well over time.
I bought a Rotary a couple of years ago, and it wasn't cheap. I expect to be using it for the foreseeable future as well.

I don't think they are overpriced. I think they offer value and ROI, if they fill a need in your life or workflow. There aren't a lot of options in that space.
If you don't need them and could get away w/ a cheaper Chinese torch, I'm sure they seem overpriced. Everyone has to make their own decision there.

Or you could just complain about it to the winds, because they hold the same space in the market they always have and quite a few who have bought consider it a sound purchase for a fair price. That's not going to change.
 
iacchus said:
HDS lights have never been cheap. They've always been of the utmost quality though.
Considering I still use the two I bought over a decade ago regularly (one a Ra, before the HDS branding), I think the costs ameliorate well over time.
I bought a Rotary a couple of years ago, and it wasn't cheap. I expect to be using it for the foreseeable future as well.

I don't think they are overpriced. I think they offer value and ROI, if they fill a need in your life or workflow. There aren't a lot of options in that space.
If you don't need them and could get away w/ a cheaper Chinese torch, I'm sure they seem overpriced. Everyone has to make their own decision there.

Or you could just complain about it to the winds, because they hold the same space in the market they always have and quite a few who have bought consider it a sound purchase for a fair price. That's not going to change.
Click to expand...

Yes, HDS lights are reliable. I once had a 18650 Rotary Tube that failed because the wire inside the tube became loose. There is only one light that failed less than HDS: Elzetta never failed.

HDS has minor quality issues though, but those issues don't compromise reliability. I've ordered two HDS Rotaries recently.
  • The lowest setting is different on both lights.
  • Moving the Rotary knob is harder on one light than on the other (you need more force to move it).
  • Both lights have rather big dust particles or other dirt on the reflector and on the inside of the lens. It doesn't affect the beam.
I have no problem with those minor quality issues. Although if HDS wants become a boutique light brand (which I doubt they would want) then those issues need to be addressed.

The price is upper limit I think. Nevertheless I'm ready to spend $400 (~) on a HDS Rotary because:
  • The UI is utterly perfect. And then the programmability. I think the HDS is the only flashlight that is reliable AND programmable.
  • HDS flashlights come in a very good selection of LEDs.
  • The size and weight of the 123 Rotary is exactly right for me.
  • The raised button is not too soft and not too hard, it is exactly right.
  • HDS flashlights neither look flashy nor aggressive, they look modest and I like that.
 
Definitely hard to beat the Rotary mechanism. I believe the current price right now is on par with the product, there isn’t anything else quite like it and the design is very unique. I would like to see a couple improvements and that would be better clip options and user replaceable tailcap button.

I guess we will see what happens for the new product/pricing when it gets released
 
jarobi said:
have you priced a Haiku lately?
Click to expand...
Haiku is Titanium while the HDS is not. Comparing a Ti HDS to a Haiku is 2-3x the cost

Ti Haiku is $460
Aluminum/SS Rotary is $439

Both without shipping prices

Not sure what the cost was of a Ti HDS rotary when it was available, based off the copper and other specialty lights that were available my guess is around $900, someone can confirm this if possible
 
Last edited:
At the price point, the Haiku uses older emitters and a UI that, arguably, isn't nearly as intuitive as the Rotary. I HATE three mode clicky lights- simply my opinion.

Comparing what you get for the money with both is valid simply from a value standpoint. I don't see anyone whining and complaining about the price of the Haiku on the McGizmo threads.

I will also argue these men engineered and built industry changing products and the price is worth it simply to support what they've built from scratch. No one forces anyone to buy a McGizmo or HDS. One can start his own competing brand, engineer something groundbreaking, and give it away for free if he deems fit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top