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Gas prices
- Thread starter Candleometry
- Start date
Simple physics. It takes a lot of energy to push a big, unaerodynamic box through the air. I don't see why we can't make SUVs and pickups more aerodynamic. Have a streamlined front end for starters. That doesn't affect the functionality of the rest of the vehicle at all. It'll also make the vehicle much safer in areas with pedestrians and cyclists. Also, the sharp transitions on the body create a lot of air turbulence which hurts efficiency.
It seems in the last two decades we forgot all the lessons we learned about aerodynamics in the previous 100 years.
Also, we should aim to sell fewer of these huge vehicles. That's one thing keeping fuel prices high.
Here's a good read on vehicle bloat:
Study: How Capping Vehicle Sizes Could Help Save the World — Streetsblog USA
A new study demonstrates the mutually reinforcing strategies of shrinking cars; shifting people to bikes, walking and transit; and electrification.
usa.streetsblog.org
Other tangential reasons why this is hurting us:
The Financial Costs of the Pedestrian Death Crisis Are Still Stratospheric — Streetsblog USA
The financial burden of pedestrian deaths still adds up to tens of billions of dollars even as fatalities fall — and the organization behind the new finding hopes the staggering price of road violence will motivate people to finally take action.
usa.streetsblog.org
Friday Video: A Master List of All The Reasons Why Car Domination Sucks — Streetsblog USA
Jason Slaughter catalogues the many harms of America's preferred transportation monoculture.
usa.streetsblog.org
Monday's Headlines Only Hurt Ourselves — Streetsblog USA
Climate change has cost global economies tens of trillions of dollars. The U.S. is both the biggest culprit and biggest victim.
usa.streetsblog.org
Besides downsizing vehicles mode shift will help a lot. Rail is still the most efficient way to move people and goods by far. We should embrace it.
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probably the same design philosophy as modern flashlight companies. "keep the same runtime but brighter".
Paradoxically, this spurs research into more efficient and/or efficacious designs, as the only ways to increase output are to increase power production, or improve the conversion factors.
Take the aging 519A, for example...it's generally more efficacious across the board than the 219b, and a bit more efficient on the lower modes. Yet, people prefer to utilize the extra efficacy rather than the efficiency...
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People demand larger vehicles so manufacturers will continue to produce them because they sell.Simple physics. It takes a lot of energy to push a big, unaerodynamic box through the air. I don't see why we can't make SUVs and pickups more aerodynamic. Have a streamlined front end for starters. That doesn't affect the functionality of the rest of the vehicle at all. It'll also make the vehicle much safer in areas with pedestrians and cyclists. Also, the sharp transitions on the body create a lot of air turbulence which hurts efficiency.
It seems in the last two decades we forgot all the lessons we learned about aerodynamics in the previous 100 years.
Also, we should aim to sell fewer of these huge vehicles. That's one thing keeping fuel prices high.
Here's a good read on vehicle bloat:
Study: How Capping Vehicle Sizes Could Help Save the World — Streetsblog USA
A new study demonstrates the mutually reinforcing strategies of shrinking cars; shifting people to bikes, walking and transit; and electrification.
Other tangential reasons why this is hurting us:
The Financial Costs of the Pedestrian Death Crisis Are Still Stratospheric — Streetsblog USA
The financial burden of pedestrian deaths still adds up to tens of billions of dollars even as fatalities fall — and the organization behind the new finding hopes the staggering price of road violence will motivate people to finally take action.
Friday Video: A Master List of All The Reasons Why Car Domination Sucks — Streetsblog USA
Jason Slaughter catalogues the many harms of America's preferred transportation monoculture.
Monday's Headlines Only Hurt Ourselves — Streetsblog USA
Climate change has cost global economies tens of trillions of dollars. The U.S. is both the biggest culprit and biggest victim.
Besides downsizing vehicles mode shift will help a lot. Rail is still the most efficient way to move people and goods by far. We should embrace it.
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- May 15, 2012
- Messages
- 1,877
The good news: a gallon of gas is back down to $2.59.
The bad news: there are only 32 ounces in a gallon.
Kestrel
Flashaholic
Somewhat but not exactly IMO; there are two types of car purchasers - new car buyers and used car buyers.
The manufacturers cater to new car purchasers - I can't speak for them, but it appears as though they are wanting larger cars.
I have always been a 'used car' purchaser (and like smaller cars BTW);
the manufacturers are not making cars for people such as me, because I am not their customer.
I think it was the same dynamic for manual transmissions - new car buyers tended to want automatic transmissions, so here we are. And manual transmission folks like me became increasingly irrelevant.
The manufacturers literally don't care what folks like me want or purchase. :-/
I hate the fact that a few years back, car-makers just quietly decided to get rid of Sub-compact vehicles. Compacts were classified as "Sub-compacts." Mid-size vehicles classified as "Compacts." And so on.
Can I get a sports sedan that is light, nimble, small, and has an engine that doesn't make me feel dead inside? Can I get that nowadays? Apparently not.
Can I get a sports sedan that is light, nimble, small, and has an engine that doesn't make me feel dead inside? Can I get that nowadays? Apparently not.
+
Approx. 25% of cars are leased,, manufactures just don't care what those people want, not really.
.. and one could say, that's why CVT transmissions are used > cheap to produce
The industry is having to pivot because EVs' are not selling, they put alot of eggs in that basket.
You could have a mid size sedan or suv with a small modern turbo diesel engine (say 1.6L direct injected ~ turbo)
get great mileage and good torque.
It wouldn't be high rpm engine, but the torque makes up for it. (8 speed transmission in it)
Really no diesel options in mid sized vehicles
Approx. 25% of cars are leased,, manufactures just don't care what those people want, not really.
.. and one could say, that's why CVT transmissions are used > cheap to produce
The industry is having to pivot because EVs' are not selling, they put alot of eggs in that basket.
You could have a mid size sedan or suv with a small modern turbo diesel engine (say 1.6L direct injected ~ turbo)
get great mileage and good torque.
It wouldn't be high rpm engine, but the torque makes up for it. (8 speed transmission in it)
Really no diesel options in mid sized vehicles
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To a huge extent demand is influenced by advertising. I recall when SUVs first came out many were calling them big, ugly boxes. Then after years of advertising they comprise the majority of vehicles sold. The car manufacturers want to sell these because they make more profit. They're not included in CAFE calculations. That means no need to add things which improve efficiency. And until fairly recently they didn't require any emissions controls at all. No catalytic converter or other parts to reduce harmful emissions.
The oil companies doubtless influenced this also. If they had their way everyone would be driving a 6 mpg Hummer and gas prices would be up to $10 a gallon.
I think recent current events will show going EV was the correct strategy all along. Unfortunately that doesn't mean simply electrifying gigantic vehicles. That's one reason the transition has been so difficult. China is making the kinds of EVs which make the transition feasible. Small, aerodynamic sedans which use 1/3 to 1/5 the battery and energy to go any given number of miles compared to something like an F150 Lightning. Either the US automakers follow suit or they'll disappear. Unlike last time there is no public appetite for a bailout. Tesla is the only US company making sensible vehicles, the Cybertruck not withstanding.
What's the cost to replace a battery in an EV?
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Don't ask, the EV studies referenced almost never tell the whole truth...
They don't need replacing until 300K to 1 million plus miles in modern EVs. Once we transition to sodium-ion figure about 5 million miles.
Most manufacturers are giving warranties of 8 years and 100K miles for the battery. If the replacement rate over that time span wasn't miniscule they couldn't afford to do that.
Also once an EV battery is no longer suited for that purpose it can be sold and used for grid storage for another 10 or 20 or 30 years.
EVs are only a medium-term answer at best. The long-term answer to move towards non-automotive modes.
There have been far too many oil crises in my life. It's getting old. Just get off it once and for all. EVs are a (small) part of the answer.
Here's why EVs, are a miserable failure as a solution to fossile fueled vehicles....
Most folks live in apartment buildings. Most buildings don't have indoor garages that can be set up with charging stations for each apartment. So, most folks literally cannot charge an EV, overnight. That is a huge issue because EVs were released to the public before a national network of vast charging areas (similar to what exists with gas-stations) was set up. So, the masses literally cannot charge up an EV on a regular basis. Everyone with a job, is at risk of getting fired for not being able to get to work reliably.
Charging takes way too long compared to a gasoline powered vehicle.
Capacity of an EV drops as it gets older. On a gasoline vehicle, your gas tank doesn't shrink every year that goes by. Then there's the cost of replacement batteries. Hideously expensive. Nearly half the cost of the EV, brand new. Solution to that issue is leasing. Pay, pay, pay.... "You'll own nothing, and you'll like it."
Used EVs? Literally no market for it.
Got into a major crash with your EV? Hope it doesn't catch fire! Talk about Vent With Flame. The fumes are going to be highly toxic. Survive the crash, live with crippling lung issues that never go away. As for everyone in that neighborhood, toxic cloud of smoke making its way to everyone there. Including children.
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Depending on the model, almost the full cost of the vehicle; brand new.
I'm sorry but that is an absolute myth. You'll be lucky to get 60 - 80 thousand miles before they'll need replacing. For some folks that's just over 5 years of driving. Not nearly long enough.
China solved this issue already with battery swapping stations:
A better answer to areas with apartment buildings is better transit and bike lanes so most don't need to drive. Nobody in NYC should need to drive to their job to get there reliably. We could have solved this problem in the 1920s.
Only matters if you can't charge overnight at home. In the US as a whole most people do in fact have a garage or driveway, even if that's not the case in NYC. In NYC EVs with built-in solar panels can partially solve the issue. They can add 5 to 25 miles of range per day. For many city commutes this is enough. If nothing else the panels will reduce the frequency of trips to charging stations.
Did you watch the video? The degradation is typically very small. And that's with older NMC batteries. The EV industry is well on the way to transitioning to LFP batteries now that energy density has gotten close to that of NMC batteries. LFP batteries last upwards of 2,000 cycles, compared to 500 for NMC.
I can't answer this one way or another but I suspect that market will grow as the number of EVs on the market does.
This is becoming less and less of an issue as we move to LFP and sodium-ion batteries which don't catch fire.
As for toxic clouds of smoke, those emit from current ICE vehicles when operating normally.
I'm sick and tired of economic shocks due to oil prices. Get off the stuff yesterday like our lives depended on it. It's a failure of government that we didn't do this 50 years ago.
The data say otherwise:
EV Battery Health: Key Findings from 22,700 Vehicle Data Analysis | Geotab
Analysis of electric vehicle battery health of 22K+ EVs reveals a 2.3% average battery degradation rate. High-power DC fast charging is the top risk factor.
If we're going to have a discussion at least let's use the current state-of-the-art, not state-of-the-art in 2005. I still have people telling me LEDs are not any more efficient than incandescent bulbs. Not here obviously.
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Nope.
Coefficient of drag (Cd):
1970s-era Mercedes W123 (240D/300TD): 0.47
2026 Nissan Pathfinder: 0.35
So the aforementioned Mercedes has a worse drag coefficient yet gets better mileage.
Weight:
300TD: 3800-3900 lbs
Pathfinder: 4300 lbs
Mercedes weighs 500 lbs less. BUT, we're talking almost 45 years difference between the two cars. Technology has certainly improved over that time, enough that it should overcome a 500 lb difference.
And, technology has improved, however emissions regulations have kneecapped this.
Case in point: my own car. EPA says it should get 22 city, 30 highway. Mine is running different software. Emissions 100% intact. I'm getting 28 city, 45 highway. All via software changes. What's coming out of the tailpipe? I don't know, and frankly don't care. I'm burning 20%-33% less fuel than the EPA-spec cars, which should translate to fewer emissions as well. It won't make a clipboard warrior happy, but I'm about practical gains. It's part of the reason I have this car over a Prius, as it's far more environmentally friendly, cradle-to-grave, including fuel burned.
You answered part of the reason for this: They're not part of CAFE standards. Additionally, US fuel efficiency standards punish automakers for small vehicles. Instead, they're judged on how much of a physical footprint they make on the ground. It's why many cars are shaped like pyramids these days. Fat bottom = more surface coverage = lower emissions targets. You can still buy a Taliban Taxi aka Toyota Hilux worldwide, except the USA because of our regulations. Same with the Isuzu D-Max. Same story for a lot of smaller, more efficient cars.
As it's been said before, rail can't do what road vehicles can. NYC is its own animal. 99.9% of the USA isn't NYC, nor can it ever be. Nor could it ever be, even with a clean-sheet design. Rail is good at long distance, for sure. But it also has the most restrictive infrastructure out of all modes of transport. Aviation requires the least infrastructure.
Our most recent trip to Mayo Clinic couldn't have happened by rail. Between the medical equipment and supplies we needed to carry, between the two full offices' worth of equipment we needed to carry for our jobs, and clothes, even a regular full size car wasn't going to cut it. Fringe case you say? Mayo was packed today. They treat ~175,000 people a year and this is their smallest campus. The drive was filled, All SUVs, similar stories to ours. There were Bentley and Rolls SUVs there today as well.
Nope. Electric cars need to be charged. Power generation still generally burning things, especially at night when most EVs are charged at-home.
NY State:
Fossil fuels: 80.2%
Renewables: 2.9%
California:
Fossil Fuels: 83%
Renewables: 3.0%.
Moving the tailpipe from the butt-end of your car to a power plant doesn't change this.
