Flock cameras?
- Thread starter raggie33
- Start date
R U a 2x4? = board LOL
1984's Big Brother would have been proud! 
I wish Flock would be honest about what their cameras are actually doing and the capabilities of these types of cameras. They aren't just "license plate readers". That alone would be bad enough. But they also identify people. You can search for people based on tattoos the cameras have seen, NOT in cars. Some of these types of cameras even record Bluetooth/WiFi MAC addresses (hard-coded serial numbers). Some medical devices use Bluetooth as well.
This isn't about tracking license plates, it's about tracking people. There have already been a handful of stories which went public where the data was wrong, or the data was abused, causing nightmare scenarios for the innocent people caught up in it. I read about a gentleman in Colorado whose car's plates keep getting flagged by the Flock cameras as being a stolen car. It's not. He's tried to work with the police, who indeed say his car isn't stolen. But every time he drives past a Flock camera it triggers a stolen car alert to police nearby.
Can these be useful for crime investigation? Sure. It'd also be very helpful for fighting crime if every phone call, text message, e-mail, and web activity were recorded. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. Just take a look at the COVID times. People were encouraged to rat out their neighbors. People were losing their bank accounts in the USA and Canada because they went against The Party's propaganda. Doctors lost licenses. Businesses forced to go bankrupt. All because they dared speak out. The FBI and DOJ targeted parents who disagreed with school boards. Microsoft is tracking every Windows device and there doesn't appear to be a practical way to avoid it other than not using Microsoft products. A man was charged for not unlocking his phone and handing data over to CBP at Atlanta Airport. While I think he's a disgusting individual, the point still stands. Surveillance is great, as long as you're not the target of it. Folks, all it takes is one election. Then you become the target.
It's a very slippery slope. We've been here before. It was called the DDR, Deutsche Demokratische Republik, aka East Germany, and currently exists in DPRK, Democratic People's Republic of Korea. I'd like to point out that both claimed to be Democratic, so much so that they officially named their countries that, but couldn't be any further than the truth. To a lesser extent, the Камітэт дзяржаўнай бяспекі (KGB) still operates as it always has in Belarus. Lukashenko has been "president" for 32 years now.
I strongly encourage everyone to watch the German movie Das Leben der Anderen. It's about the Stasi, told from the perspective of a Stasi employee. Fictional story, however based on real procedures and stories. They went to great lengths to make things accurate.
This isn't about tracking license plates, it's about tracking people. There have already been a handful of stories which went public where the data was wrong, or the data was abused, causing nightmare scenarios for the innocent people caught up in it. I read about a gentleman in Colorado whose car's plates keep getting flagged by the Flock cameras as being a stolen car. It's not. He's tried to work with the police, who indeed say his car isn't stolen. But every time he drives past a Flock camera it triggers a stolen car alert to police nearby.
Can these be useful for crime investigation? Sure. It'd also be very helpful for fighting crime if every phone call, text message, e-mail, and web activity were recorded. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. Just take a look at the COVID times. People were encouraged to rat out their neighbors. People were losing their bank accounts in the USA and Canada because they went against The Party's propaganda. Doctors lost licenses. Businesses forced to go bankrupt. All because they dared speak out. The FBI and DOJ targeted parents who disagreed with school boards. Microsoft is tracking every Windows device and there doesn't appear to be a practical way to avoid it other than not using Microsoft products. A man was charged for not unlocking his phone and handing data over to CBP at Atlanta Airport. While I think he's a disgusting individual, the point still stands. Surveillance is great, as long as you're not the target of it. Folks, all it takes is one election. Then you become the target.
It's a very slippery slope. We've been here before. It was called the DDR, Deutsche Demokratische Republik, aka East Germany, and currently exists in DPRK, Democratic People's Republic of Korea. I'd like to point out that both claimed to be Democratic, so much so that they officially named their countries that, but couldn't be any further than the truth. To a lesser extent, the Камітэт дзяржаўнай бяспекі (KGB) still operates as it always has in Belarus. Lukashenko has been "president" for 32 years now.
I strongly encourage everyone to watch the German movie Das Leben der Anderen. It's about the Stasi, told from the perspective of a Stasi employee. Fictional story, however based on real procedures and stories. They went to great lengths to make things accurate.
Flock cameras monitor people. All people. Had the Soviet Union continued to exist, every block on every street would have Flock cameras on them. It is beyond disgusting. It is obscene! I have no tattoos. One major reason: The Soviets used my dad's tat to positively I.D. him each and every single time. He wasn't a scumbag criminal. He was a citizen who refused to fall in line. In their eyes, guess that made him a criminal. He had one tat. Won't go into the details here. Some of you already know the story of how and when he got it.
No one is making a positive I.D. off of one of my tats, because I don't have any!
No one is making a positive I.D. off of one of my tats, because I don't have any!
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remember when pokemon Go came out and the conspiracy theorists were ridiculed for being tin foily?
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Ai is more dangerous.
I don't have a problem with AI... EXCEPT, it's a tool. Like any tool, the skill of the user depends whether it's useful or dangerous. From an IBM internal report cautioned in 1979, “A computer can never be held accountable, therefore a computer must never make a management decision."
My office ran its own private AI server farm starting in late 2022/early 2023. I was the gatekeeper between it and the users. I didn't want my users becoming dependent or lazy, as I know some of them would. I'd intentionally have it throw some wrong info in there to make sure they read it. If I didn't get a correction report back, I knew the user didn't read it.
My office ran its own private AI server farm starting in late 2022/early 2023. I was the gatekeeper between it and the users. I didn't want my users becoming dependent or lazy, as I know some of them would. I'd intentionally have it throw some wrong info in there to make sure they read it. If I didn't get a correction report back, I knew the user didn't read it.
^and none of any revelation even from the 70s has clued us in.
"I don't have a problem with Ai ...." it has led us to now. I'm not against using it. I'm against its use undisclosed. I have had fun mucking around with Ai when I know the answer.
There was a day when newspapers were considered evil. ......oh wait
"I don't have a problem with Ai ...." it has led us to now. I'm not against using it. I'm against its use undisclosed. I have had fun mucking around with Ai when I know the answer.
There was a day when newspapers were considered evil. ......oh wait
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Person of Interest brings together concerns about public surveillance and AI.
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deepfakes, obscure laws, etc... the thing about espionage is that if they want to find something, they will. Some of these average joes have above average egos, and will go out of their way to ruin peoples' lives for literally no reason, no justifiable reason towards the target... i.e. mistaken identities, boredom, etc. Some people just decide to stay self-entitled and evil.
Robocop
Mammoth Killer
There is no doubt the Flock system has led to the capture of many violent criminals however as is with any tool it can be abused. The officers abusing the system are being terminated from the job however they are often not being charged criminally. They are fired for policy violations and not charged with viewing the public data. If they somehow harass someone or use the info for stalking they may be charged however the simple act of tracking a vehicle or person in public is not illegal. Flock is all public view data and as such much different than using the National database to obtain protected private information. That system has strict rules and as it is regulated federally results in jail time if abused. One must be certified to use the NCIC systems where Flock requires no certification.
I can follow and film anyone in public from a distance. Anyone actually can do the same however if I were to somehow physically interfere with their movements or trespass on their property to film then it becomes criminal. The fact that anyone can film in public is how companies other than law enforcement also use flock. Just about every Wal Mart store uses flock. Every vehicle is tagged and also every person entering. If a vehicle or person is involved with a single theft they can ,and often do, search backwards for every time that vehicle has visited.
They then track the occupant(s) through the store looking for past thefts. They then may sign additional warrants. Also often if a suspect is unknown they will search social media for matches trying to obtain the info. I have seen it work many times and it is crazy how well it works. Also Flock users can share their network. Many agencies use WalMart Flock to locate suspects as pretty much anyone in the U.S. has visited a Wal Mart.
We recently had a felony theft and entered the suspect vehicle in Flock. Moments after the theft the vehicle hit a WalMart camera and the alert went out. He was caught in that very parking lot. With all of the recent attention our Chief seriously considered terminating our Flock system simply to avoid negative public perception. Once he saw just how many serious violent crimes were solved with Flock he chose to keep it. I feel this will happen with departments across the nation. They do not want the negativity ,nor the abuse claims, yet they will tolerate the risks as it does work very well when used correctly.
I once had several people complain of a man taking photos of women in a local park. I found the man sitting on a bench and he had a very nice camera. He openly admitted to taking photos of women here explaining he enjoyed photography and enjoyed watching people. He never approached anyone and the owners of the park (the city) had no signs posted preventing photos. Yes it was weird and kind of creepy however it is absolutely allowed. I got several complaints to my Chief after I allowed him to continue yet again it is legal.
The Flock system is an easy system to complain on as it is well known in our society today. We have been being tracked in many other ways for years. Many other lesser known systems track vehicles, cell phones, social media, patterns and habits, even voice data. I do believe that some will abuse these tools however honestly it is rare and the systems are quickly evolving to quickly catch any who do abuse them. I also know mistakes with system have happened yet again it is rare and with each mistake the system learns how to prevent additional incidents. Every keystroke and search is logged and can be had by anyone filing a freedom of info request. I can tell you personally as a user of Flock that it would be very foolish to use it for anything other than criminal justice.....you will most surely get caught.
I know this is a touchy subject and and I seriously do not wish to ignite a heated debate among friends. I did want to give a different perspective of the benefits of Flock from my personal experiences. I can also easily see how the public could feel violated by such a system however again you are being tracked in many other ways and if you have done nothing wrong you probably never even knew it.
I can follow and film anyone in public from a distance. Anyone actually can do the same however if I were to somehow physically interfere with their movements or trespass on their property to film then it becomes criminal. The fact that anyone can film in public is how companies other than law enforcement also use flock. Just about every Wal Mart store uses flock. Every vehicle is tagged and also every person entering. If a vehicle or person is involved with a single theft they can ,and often do, search backwards for every time that vehicle has visited.
They then track the occupant(s) through the store looking for past thefts. They then may sign additional warrants. Also often if a suspect is unknown they will search social media for matches trying to obtain the info. I have seen it work many times and it is crazy how well it works. Also Flock users can share their network. Many agencies use WalMart Flock to locate suspects as pretty much anyone in the U.S. has visited a Wal Mart.
We recently had a felony theft and entered the suspect vehicle in Flock. Moments after the theft the vehicle hit a WalMart camera and the alert went out. He was caught in that very parking lot. With all of the recent attention our Chief seriously considered terminating our Flock system simply to avoid negative public perception. Once he saw just how many serious violent crimes were solved with Flock he chose to keep it. I feel this will happen with departments across the nation. They do not want the negativity ,nor the abuse claims, yet they will tolerate the risks as it does work very well when used correctly.
I once had several people complain of a man taking photos of women in a local park. I found the man sitting on a bench and he had a very nice camera. He openly admitted to taking photos of women here explaining he enjoyed photography and enjoyed watching people. He never approached anyone and the owners of the park (the city) had no signs posted preventing photos. Yes it was weird and kind of creepy however it is absolutely allowed. I got several complaints to my Chief after I allowed him to continue yet again it is legal.
The Flock system is an easy system to complain on as it is well known in our society today. We have been being tracked in many other ways for years. Many other lesser known systems track vehicles, cell phones, social media, patterns and habits, even voice data. I do believe that some will abuse these tools however honestly it is rare and the systems are quickly evolving to quickly catch any who do abuse them. I also know mistakes with system have happened yet again it is rare and with each mistake the system learns how to prevent additional incidents. Every keystroke and search is logged and can be had by anyone filing a freedom of info request. I can tell you personally as a user of Flock that it would be very foolish to use it for anything other than criminal justice.....you will most surely get caught.
I know this is a touchy subject and and I seriously do not wish to ignite a heated debate among friends. I did want to give a different perspective of the benefits of Flock from my personal experiences. I can also easily see how the public could feel violated by such a system however again you are being tracked in many other ways and if you have done nothing wrong you probably never even knew it.
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Just underscoring the necessity of securing the systems against bad actors...some "law" students in the past have shared access with their friends to databases like lexisnexis whether directly or indirectly. Some were also victims as conduits of unauthorized access. Giant datascrapers gather info from unsecured sources, and the average joe loses the right to privacy. I speculate that obfuscation, encryption, data removal, those types of services are all run or funded by govt entities as shell corps, harvesting data for collaborative agencies or system abusers with system level access.
Oh Old friend.... That's not the point. They collect personal data on you and everyone who drives past them. You and everyone else gets treated like a criminal, anyway. Welcome to the New Soviet Union.
Having been born into the old one, it was not much fun. (To put it very mildly.)
