HDS Systems #23

[Schokokeks]

Where did you hear there is going to be a single AA light?

I have read that the new light is going to use an 18500 body tube. (which would work with single 14500 LiIon, but not single AA primary)

See my post #3006 in this thread for my argument of "reading between the lines" that they're planning an an AA engine.

A durable and dependable light like the HDS I think would need AA support. If I'm depending on a light to work each and every time I need it, I would like AA support or at least a tube option for it. CR123's are getting ridiculously expensive meanwhile there's always a AA battery around, or any store carries them, and they are cheap. Not to mention rechargeable eneloops. 18500 is nice and all but there's not really much buying options for 18500s, plus makes the light wider and heavier. IMO a AA/14500 is one of the best battery options in a flashlight. Standard size and tube diameter would be a bit thinner making less bulk and thickness while carrying.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

The current HDS offerings, frankly, are harangued by the limitations of the CR123A battery. You could maintain the similar levels of performance of the current line of HDS (or maybe 75% of that) with a single AA eneloop format, 14500 Li-ion if they're feeling spicy.

Plus, if you ask me, if you're going to try and make an apocalypse proof light, it needs to use eneloops. Single use lithium cells like the CR123A, as noted, are becoming more niche, and are expensive. AA cells are the most ubiquitous cell there is. There have to be tens, if not hundreds of billions of AA cells on the planet. People seem to forget that AA/AAA cells already won the "size wars." They are just a perfect sweet spot of size and capacity. Yes, you can get bigger cells, but AA and AAA just make for perfect handheld items. The AA cell size is from 1907. It's going to be around in 2107. Will these other cell sizes? Remember how 18650 was the new standard? It's what, 20 years later, and now 21700 is the new standard. But, I'm sure people will grow tired of their giant lights, and that might change, again.

AA cells remind of 9x19 pistol cartridges. They're about the same age, and they are both the standard, but both have gone through periods (recently, too) of having their noses bloodied by enthusiasts (or, snobs, alternatively), pushing more min/max specialized options...yet, they persist, and just won't die. They get updated and modernized with the newfangled gee whiz chemistries and features, and then just keep dunking on the competition (see: modern 9x19 rounds and 14500 Li-ion and Eneloops).

I'm actually a proponent of the idea of not overdriving an LED, but in 2024, 175-325 maximum lumen lights just don't make a lot of sense - unless we're talking about an AA light. That's an absolute perfect fit for the cells, and you're going to get similar runtimes from an eneloop to a CR123A at those outputs.

18500 is very cool, but that's rapidly disappearing. 18350 and 16340 have more options, for now, but 14500/AA has already proven itself, and has similar capacities.

And I'd agree on the thickness. As time goes by, I realize length doesn't make a light as awkward as width in most cases. 14500/AA cells can be a LOT thinner than 18500. Maybe that's cause I have kind of big hands...but I think this is just actually true in general.

 

[Lights and Guns]

I'm actually a proponent of the idea of not overdriving an LED, but in 2024, 175-325 maximum lumen lights just don't make a lot of sense - unless we're talking about an AA light. That's an absolute perfect fit for the cells, and you're going to get similar runtimes from an eneloop to a CR123A at those outputs.

Not sure I agree.
I have been carrying an NB40 for years now.
Once, while in Italy I found myself stuck on a side of a mountain in the pitch black, with no idea where I was.
With my NB40, (200 lumen on max) - I was able to safely make my way down and back to safety. Had I not had this light with me, I'm not certain I would have made it out of that situation without an injury.

I didn't use the HDS on max output (it's a rotary), as I didn't know how long I'd need the light for as I didn't know how long it would take me to find my way, and I didn't have a spare battery with me.
So, I used the light at about 65-70% output. It was more than enough to show myself where I was going, along with another individual that was with me.

After that day, I learned my lesson about feeling the need to have 1000 lumens in my pocket at all times... Hell, had I had a light with me that COULD put out 800-100 lumens on high, I surely would NOT have used it in that situation as it would have just killed the battery quicker for no reason.

I think an HDS is a fine tool, that is an oldie but goodie. - I think all the new companies nowadays either push lumens or candela and are in this big race to tell customers they have the "most powerful" light on the market, so that's why you should buy it.

Sure, a light can produce 3,000 lumens...for all of 11 seconds, until it drops to a sustainable output... But those companies won't tell their prospective customers that bit of information, they'll leave that out!

The flashlight industry has become snake-oil salesman like in the past few years.... Even bigger brands like Surefire - Their newest light the Turbo DFT 1 and 2 lights.... They market em at 100k cd and X number of lumens.... what they don't tell you anywhere is that the stated output is only sustainable for the first minute and 15 seconds from turn on. After the first minute and 15 seconds, the light output drops to approx. HALF the stated output. Nowhere does Surefire state this.... Which is just wild to me, that companies are allowed to do this still - it seems disingenuous.

Don't get me wrong, I have higher powered lights and enjoy using them... But think each light has their intended purpose. If I need something more powerful, I'll grab my Malkoff M91BN ... 800 lumens regulated for nearly 3 hours straight on (2) 18650's... gives off a huge and beautiful wall of light.

If I need a smaller EDC light that I can use to look underneath the seat of my jeep for my chap stick, or double check I didn't drop anything before leaving the movie theater, the HDS is the one I'm going with, heck even while camping and on hunting trips the HDS comes along. It's well suited for so many different tasks, I can't point to a time when I felt under gunned for a given situation.

Granted, I do think HDS should offer 18350 as a standard option, and this would likely also allow them to bump up the lumens if they so choose to do so. Not saying I'd want to see 1000 lumens out of one, but I wouldn't be opposed to a 500ish lumen output LED option.
This would be a noticeable "upgrade" from what's currently offered, but wouldn't be pushing the LED too hard, and with the larger capacity battery, should still be able to sustain it for a meaningful amount of time.

If anybody has any feedback or thoughts let me know, I'm all ears!

 

[carrot]

Finding myself nodding as I scroll through tonight.

14500/AA has certainly won the size wars. Lights based on them feel great. Eneloops are fantastic and 14500s seem to be constantly improving.

The existing HDS model is a great light, love the Rotary dial. However, let's not kid ourselves that this current generation were designed when 3W were common flashlight LEDs.

However, many single LED flashlights today are pushing at least 5W, and now you can buy lights in the 9W - 45W range with the same footprint as the Rotary. I do not think HDS needs to chase the 45W cannons. But I do think that it is reasonable to expect over 5W from a next gen HDS when using lithium-ion. Li-ion isn't a "secondary" cell anymore like back when CR123A were king. The Nichia 519A is rated for 7W so even if only for brief "burst mode", it would be crazy for HDS not to hit 500+lm.

 

[WarriorOfLight]

I have a NB35 Rotary for EDC. I wanted to buy a second Rotary to keep at home. I'm undecided between the NB27 and NB30. Can you help me to make a decision?

I did a compare of NB30, NB35, NB40 and NB45 some time ago. Unfortunately at that time NB27 was not released therefore it is missing:

[bimg width=600]https://i.imgur.com/XiU7SlN.jpg[/bimg]

To see a difference between NB27 and NB30 you can check out my very old big LED compare (but beware it is 219C not 219B)

[bimg width=600]https://i.imgur.com/UUvg6hU.jpg[/bimg]

To estimate the NB27, I did a compare of NB27 and NC27. NC27 is more rosy but very warm

[bimg width=600]https://i.imgur.com/vqlZcEk.jpg[/bimg]

I hope all this compares help to decide if NB27 or NB30 is the better choice.

 

[WarriorOfLight]

Where did you hear there is going to be a single AA light?

I have read that the new light is going to use an 18500 body tube. (which would work with single 14500 LiIon, but not single AA primary)

Hogo was talking about this years ago. Years could mean that corona was not even invented at that time....
Henry is planing a HDS light with an electronic that will run on a single 1.5V AA cell, maybe NiMH AA cell.
But this light would have a little bit larger diameter.
As an addition the LED head would support clicky and rotary tails without re-flashing the software.

I do not know how the progress is in this project.

 

[desert.snake]

Well, they used to do it with high brightness, here is a version with 120 lm that automatically after 10 seconds or 20 resets to 85 lm, then it was about the diodes, but it seems Hogo mentioned that it now is not about the diodes, but about the maximum safe current for the CR123 battery or something like that. The same XPG3 easily withstands 1000 lm for a long time

 

[ilikeguns40]

I'm not big on 1000 lumen pocket rockets that melt plastic and last 30 seconds before stepdown. I'd rather see reduced output with longer runtimes and being able to use common size batteries if needed, while still maintaining extreme build quality and reliability. I've yet to find a made in USA light that's potted, offers lifetime warranty, user replaceable parts, moonlight/customization options, and offers AA/14500 battery sizes. And doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Vapcell made a new F15 14500 battery that's 1500 mah.

 

[troutpool]

I remember many years ago Hogo stated that the way to make best use of a flashlight is to use just the lumens you need for a given task, and no more. Make the batteries last as long as possible. I have several 2xAA lights that I like, but the 1xAA lights I had have come and gone. The one I wish I had back again is the Sunwayman 1xAA with rotary magnetic ring for brightness selection. If HDS does come out with a 1xAA rotary, I would certainly like to have one.

 

[jon_slider]

The one I wish I had back again is the Sunwayman 1xAA with rotary magnetic ring for brightness selection.

The Sunwayman rotaries that can use AA, rely on an adapter that screws to the body tube to provide the added length, as the basic lights use CR123a/16340 body tubes

here is a pic of a V11r showing an AA extender and some of the battery options:

fwiw, on AA the output is limited to about 90 Lumens

I have a V10r for sale in the CPF classifieds. The LED has been upgraded to what HDS calls NA52 (Nichia 519a 5700K). I will include an AA extender for free if you would like this light.

The V10r has the same features as the V11r, just different body cosmetics.

An HDS is a much more durable light, because it is potted, it is drop proof. The Sunwayman lights are not potted, and if they get dropped, they sometimes just stop working, and they can not be fixed, as replacement drivers are no longer available.

I think an AA HDS Rotary would be a great product, but I dont think it fits the HDS business model, as it would require an entirely new Driver Design. Also, HDS is built around the existing reflector and head design, which is considerably wider than an AA light could use.

I dont expect HDS will design an entirely new host and driver in order to make an AA capable light. So imo the closest the new HDS design will come to AA, will be the ability to use 14500 LiIon, but the host will still be the same diameter as it is now.

 

[scalpel_ninja]

Here we are all speculating and excited for a new(-ish?) light, but when I think about what’s going on at HDS, all I visualize is @Hogokansatsukan screaming and cursing at a machine.

 

[Monocrom]

If anybody has any feedback or thoughts let me know, I'm all ears!

Honestly a perfect example why 99% of the time, those very same companies quietly incorporate one or two lower output modes into the very same eye-scorcher lights. But lying from the industry is nothing new. Outside of SureFire and literally a handful of other companies, the industry measures output at the emitter, instead of giving us realistic Out-The-Front numbers. Their excuse is they can't afford an Integrating Sphere in order to do that. Yeah, bull$#&%! Maybe back 20 years ago that was true. But not today. Why report honest, lower output numbers if you don't have to. Especially with the industry chasing lumens as a sales and marketing ploy.

 

[ironhorse]

A aa rotary would suck me back in. Who doesn't need a third rotary.

Maybe Hogo will confirm or deny when he's not busy delivery babies and scraping bodies off the highway.

 

[tech25]

I used to have a V11r, loved it but had issues with the ring spinning freely after some use- giving me just high and low. I sent it in and had it fixed but after some time the issue issue cropped up again. I bought grease and fixed it but ruined the AA adapter and can't take it off. I gifted it to a family member.

I got to try a rotary in a pass around and fell in love with the UI. Also I prefer being able to use both the switch and rotary ring without switching my grip.

 

[Schokokeks]

Not sure I agree.
I have been carrying an NB40 for years now.
Once, while in Italy I found myself stuck on a side of a mountain in the pitch black, with no idea where I was.
With my NB40, (200 lumen on max) - I was able to safely make my way down and back to safety. Had I not had this light with me, I'm not certain I would have made it out of that situation without an injury.

I didn't use the HDS on max output (it's a rotary), as I didn't know how long I'd need the light for as I didn't know how long it would take me to find my way, and I didn't have a spare battery with me.
So, I used the light at about 65-70% output. It was more than enough to show myself where I was going, along with another individual that was with me.

After that day, I learned my lesson about feeling the need to have 1000 lumens in my pocket at all times... Hell, had I had a light with me that COULD put out 800-100 lumens on high, I surely would NOT have used it in that situation as it would have just killed the battery quicker for no reason.

I think you misunderstood my point. I agree 100% with you. These hand cannons that chase big numbers are mostly useless (or toys), and an EDC light really shines (har har) in the sub-200 lumen world.

My point was more that in 2024, 175-325 lumens is really AA territory, not 16340 or 18650 territory. As others have mentioned, you can still under drive a modern LED and get outputs higher than that.

BECAUSE the rotary excels at fine adjustments and providing just enough light, it's absolutely the PERFECT format for an Eneloop light. A single AA enelooop in a rotary going to almost 200 lumens max sounds amazing. By and large, you would be using it well, well under that level. You could carry that around every day, use it, and be set - and not have to recharge that often.

Because, at the end of the day, the advantage of Li-ion cells is that you get a lot more power for the size. If you don't need to power, you don't need the size, so we're into compact batteries. But, compact Li-ion cells don't have the huge advantage over an Eneloop - if we aren't producing a ton of light.

This is the output of a Convoy T3. Notice the medium 14500 and high AA are the same output, with the AA actually lasting a bit longer (~10%).

https://1lumen.com/wp-content/uploads/convoy-t3-10min-runtime-new.png

So, my argument is not that the HDS NEEDS to make over 200 lumens, it's that 175-325 lumens isn't really a reasonable range for a Li-ion light in 2024, and I think HDS can stay in the sub-200 lumen world, and build a single AA Eneloop EDC, because, in 2024, THAT is the perfect cell for such a form factor.

I'm not big on 1000 lumen pocket rockets that melt plastic and last 30 seconds before stepdown. I'd rather see reduced output with longer runtimes and being able to use common size batteries if needed, while still maintaining extreme build quality and reliability. I've yet to find a made in USA light that's potted, offers lifetime warranty, user replaceable parts, moonlight/customization options, and offers AA/14500 battery sizes. And doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Vapcell made a new F15 14500 battery that's 1500 mah.

As a lover of US made and AA/14500, I have to sadly agree. The MDC AA is pretty fantastic, but only 3 modes. Peak El Capitans are great, but QTC isn't, and then you're looking at a single mode otherwise. If I could get the MDC range (or even a higher high) in a rotary...? TAKE MY MONEY! That sounds like a winner.

 

[gurdygurds]

I'm excited to see what it ends up looking like when they release it early next year. I got to try the Executive style light with the flush clicky during an early pass around, and while the idea of the rotary is cool, for a super tough light I'd still go with a traditional clicky controlled light. As far as output goes, I don't even program in the two highest levels on my AA Zebralights, and the high on my 1l-1AA is good enough for me as well.

Sidenote, this is making me want to find another MDC AA as well.

 

[Lights and Guns]

I'm excited to see what it ends up looking like when they release it early next year. I got to try the Executive style light with the flush clicky during an early pass around, and while the idea of the rotary is cool, for a super tough light I'd still go with a traditional clicky controlled light. As far as output goes, I don't even program in the two highest levels on my AA Zebralights, and the high on my 1l-1AA is good enough for me as well.

Sidenote, this is making me want to find another MDC AA as well.

So, the AA light is confirmed and releasing in early 25?
If so, I certainly would add (1) of them to my collection, just to own one and play around with it.

 

[gurdygurds]

So, the AA light is confirmed and releasing in early 25?
If so, I certainly would add (1) of them to my collection, just to own one and play around with it.

It's confirmed in my heart......

 

[Schokokeks]

It's confirmed in my heart......

I think I saw in a movie once that if we all believe, our dreams come true... Or, was it that Santa's sleigh can fly?

Listen, either we're getting an AA HDS, or a Christmas miracle. We can't lose.

 

[gurdygurds]

I think I saw in a movie once that if we all believe, our dreams come true... Or, was it that Santa's sleigh can fly?

Listen, either we're getting an AA HDS, or a Christmas miracle. We can't lose.

You totally get it.

 

[Mgizler]

I would sell everything I currently edc and buy another rotary immediately if it came in an AA format.