Nichia 219C

[IsaacL]

So which will be warmer? 219b or 219c? Thinking of getting a custom triple nichia, should I wait until the 219c is out?

Short answer is neither. A NVxx219B and a NVxx219C with the same CCT will share the same temperature within the chromacity range of that particular bin.

Any rumors as to when they might be available?

According to Nichia NA there are no US dealers; they are available direct if you can afford a reel (3500 pcs). The only places I've seen them for sale are Lumitronix, Cutter, and LedRise. All three are OCONUS. A number people, including myself, have been able to secure samples from Nichia though.

 

[snakebite]

just how many folks can tell the difference in real life?

What good is 83 CRI? I like Nichias in the 90's

 

[recDNA]

just how many folks can tell the difference in real life?

But I KNOW. No I cannot id one beam from the other but I know the 219b will represent colors more accurately and produces adequate output for me. There are xm-l2 in the 85 cri range that have more output than 219c and about the same color rendition...if you can still find one.

 

[jon_slider]

I have two N219a lights, rated 90CRI
actual spectrometer testing shows one is 85CRI and the other is 87CRI. The 85CRI looks slightly Warmer, both LEDs test ~4400Kelvin

moral of the story, CRI specs have a 5CRI range within which LEDs are grouped, so 85actual can be sold as 90 spec

My XP-g2 lights test in the 70CRI range, and about 5800 kelvin.. I can definitely tell the difference between a 70CRI and 85 CRI LED, but many people do not care and are perfectly happy with bright blue LEDs

brightness is inversely proportional to CRI

if you do some math you will learn that the phosphor coating that adds CRI, decreases brightness in a 4500K 90CRI N219, compared to a 6000K 70 CRI led

the fact that most people dont care about tint, and mostly care about brightness, is what sells so many low CRI LEDs

 

[louie]

Yes, most people don't care about CRI or tint so much anymore. But I put 219A 92CRI 4500K into several of my lights and they are my only lights that can make my skin or a piece of beefsteak look like it does in the sunlight. Everything else (neutral, cool, etc) looks awful now, including a new Eagtac D25C Ti with a "219 92CRI D220". I suspect they fudged the bin, and I've ordered some more 219B from Illumn to see. I don't do any fancy measurements, but take a photo with the camera set to "daylight". So far, only the 219A does it for me (with limited experience on 219B), and outputs are just fine for me.

But I must admit I use Cree lightbulbs in the house, and the ordinary 80CRI warm makes most things looks decent around the house.

 

[SemiMan]

Is that 5000k or 5700 daylight setting? 5000k will photo 4500/as close.

 

[louie]

Is that 5000k or 5700 daylight setting? 5000k will photo 4500/as close.

I don't know. It's a simple Canon S95 camera and the manual doesn't say exactly what color temperature their daylight setting is.

 

[lyyyghtey]

The CRI matters to me, as I'm a true tint snob!:shakehead Given a sufficiently colorful scene and comparable, high-enough light levels, I can indeed tell whether I'm using an 80CRI 2700K LED bulb or a 90, without having to compare the two first. The lower one will make the scene look more yellowish overall and the higher one will pop the reds noticeably more while simultaneously leaving the whites looking white. Using the same criterion, I believe I am also able to distinguish the lower-CRI "Nichia 219 hi-CRI 4500K" emitters from the higher ones.

 

[gunga]

Note. Mtn electronics will be getting Nichia 219C too.

 

[lyyyghtey]

Note. Mtn electronics will be getting Nichia 219C too.

How does that jibe with post #36 above? Or is it not the hi-CRI version.

 

[EV_007]

Looks promising. I'm all for advancements in the High CRI arena.

 

[IsaacL]

Gunga is just saying that they will be selling the 219C. There are many "versions" of the 219C series: NVSL219C, NVSW219C, etc... plus the usual CCT, CRI, flux, and voltage binning as well.

I spoke to a Nichia senior sales associate today who confirmed that they only intend to produce the 219C in 70 and 80 min CRI.

 

[SemiMan]

Gunga is just saying that they will be selling the 219C. There are many "versions" of the 219C series: NVSL219C, NVSW219C, etc... plus the usual CCT, CRI, flux, and voltage binning as well.

I spoke to a Nichia senior sales associate today who confirmed that they only intend to produce the 219C in 70 and 80 min CRI.

It's not at all surprising that they are not doing a high CRI version of the 219C, at least initially.

If you look at how the LED market has developed you have:

1) High volume general lighting (troffers, etc.) for offices, bulbs, etc. This is becoming almost exclusively the domain of mid power LEDs, 1/2 - 1/4 watt.

2) Downlights, track lights, directed lighting without high levels of optical control, and some well controlled directed lighting -- somewhat controlled by COB

3) Highly or tightly controlled directed lighting, severe duty lighting, etc. .. streetlights, automotive, yes flashlights ....being where high powered discrete emitters are most used.


You have some big markets like high bay lighting and even street lighting that has multiple implementation methods, but for the most part lighting is getting divided as above.

#1 and #2 markets require high CRI. #3 rarely does.


Nichia is putting their technology where the money is, and currently high CRI high power discrete emitters is not where its at. Even the average flashlight user could not care less about CRI. If you are out looking critically looking at the color of red roses in the middle of the night, I think you have more issues than the CRI of your light :-) I do appreciate the 4000K Nichia 90+CRI and was really impressed with it when doing some cave exploration, but that was a unique situation and I did not have a lower CRI unit to compare it to.

 

[IsaacL]

Right on! Fantastic post.

I think the high CRI base is already covered by the NVSL219BT-V1 (R9080 spec). Perhaps there will be a V1 addition to the 219C series next year but for now, this gets the job done. Like you said, high power emitters are in demand and 83 CRI (typical) is very good for most applications outside museum lighting and whatnot.

 

[jon_slider]

thanks for the very educational posts

Im considering a 90CRI N219 LED swap for an Olight i3s flashlight powered by aaa Eneloop.

If only the LED is swapped, keeping the same driver, reflector, and battery, what percent difference in lumen output, battery life, or CCT, would there be between a 90CRI N219A and a 90CRI N219B?

And, if 90CRI N219C was available, what would its benefit be compared to a 90CRI N219B, for an LED swap, to an existing light?

 

[more_vampires]

Afaik with no driver swap, the 219C would be slightly brighter due to higher efficiency vs 219a and 219b. Haven't run the tests personally, I could be mistaken.

With a current decrease mod, the 219c should have longer runtimes at the same brightness as unmodded a or b. Efficiency can be sliced two ways.

 

[IsaacL]

To add to Vampire's answer, CCT for the 219C is now measured on a McAdams ellipse. That means there's no way to directly compare CCT with the 219A or 219B.

 

[jon_slider]

Afaik with no driver swap, the 219C would be slightly brighter due to higher efficiency

Thanks for the exploration.
Are the power specs lower on the C?

I expected C to operate at higher power,
that a driver for an A would be underpowering the C, prolonging battery life (efficiency), at the expense of not burning hot enough to achieve the full potential CRI of the N219C.

confused

there's no way to directly compare CCT with the 219A or 219B.

independent spectrometer tests, side by side would be nice :-)

 

[more_vampires]

Thanks for the exploration.
Are the power specs lower on the C?

I expected C to operate at higher power,
that a driver for an A would be underpowering the C, prolonging battery life (efficiency), at the expense of not burning hot enough to achieve the full potential CRI of the N219C.

Oh, 219c CAN, AFAIK. 1300lm@6a.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?402839-Nichia-219C

It produced almost as many lumens as the highest binned lower-CRI XPG2 cool white (S4 2B), and outperformed all other XPG2s tested. Output peaked at close to 1300 lumens at 6 amps. Also the new Nichia is more efficient than all the CREEs, with a Vf lower than all the XPG2s and even 0.25v lower than the XML2.

With the same driver and 2 led with roughly similar voltages and currents, the one with higher efficiency will be brighter when driven the same as the other less efficient one.

I don't think an A or B driver can underpower a C as the C has the lowest minimum forward voltages of the 3. A driver tuned for just 219C may have the lowest modes unusable as the Vf slips below minimum if you tried to run an A or B on it.

Hope that made sense.

 

[jon_slider]

Hope that made sense.

great explanations, thank you!
C more efficient, hence brighter than A, on same driver
or, lower power driver designed for the C could provide longer battery life
and, N219C brighter than XP-G2 and XM-L2 at similar 70-80 cri.
(no 90CRI needed for brightness market)

looking forward to some tint comparisons of the N219A, B and C, my (easy) bet is CCT will be higher and CRI lower in C (brightess market doesnt mind high CCT)