Malkoff M60 & M30 Runtimes,etc

[Kestrel]

Kestrel I am sort of agreeing with you. A nice low vf LED, using a buck circuit, will work ok with one Lithium Ion cell, for awhile, and there is no reason not to use that format for casual use, and yes you would get a slowly dimming light, not bad in itself. Maybe we put too much stock in perfect regulation for our uses. Save the primary cells for that good regulation and gradual drop in output when regulation drops off. Use those primary cells for critical uses of our flashlight.

I think that we also take too much stock in super bright lights running at full bore, drawing high mA's from our cells. Most of my lights have some form of variable output, and I notice that i use them well below high mode. The Malkoff LL, and L's have enough light for most of our purposes, and we get that longer runtime too, which is easy on our batteries. the M30 is perfect with two AA NiMh's, lower output, and cells that aren't Lithium this or that.

Well said, good points here. I now have spent ~$200 adding low modes to two high-output SF's. My goodness, if SF released a two-level (resistored - I'm thinking 120 ohms for ~10 lumens on low with an M60) production Z41 tailcap they would just clean house in CPF, IMO. I also think about what things would be like with a Malkoff M45 to split the difference between the M60 and M30:

• Flat regulation at 240 lumen maximum output for maybe ~2/3 of the amp-hrs of a single 3.7v cell
• Subsequently falling out of regulation, significantly declining but still impressive output until PC cutoff
• 2xCR123 primary capability for backup when the 1x17670 is depleted (the M30 is almost there, but Gene doesn't recommend this configuration)

I'm thinking it would have to be both buck & boost to achieve these goals, but wouldn't that be great? :tinfoil: Well, one can always dream I guess...

 

[metlarules]

I kind of wish Gene would come out with a Malkoff M15. Full power and regulation on 1.5v. It would be great to have running on a 4/3/af cell(18650 nimh-4500mah).

 

[etc]

if SF released a two-level (resistored - I'm thinking 120 ohms for ~10 lumens on low with an M60) production Z41 tailcap they would just clean house in CPF, IMO.

Good point -- I would get such a device. Lack of a low mode is the only thing I don't like about SF or SF clones. But I am too afraid to mess with aftermarket stuff as it may reduce reliability.

 

[Justin Case]

I did some lux and run time measurements today on my Malkoff M30. It looks like that my M30 never really runs in full regulation. The M30 has a higher hot spot lux measurement when driven by an IMR16340 vs AW16340. However, the AW16340 definitely had better run time -- about 1 hr to the 50% point, vs 30 min for the IMR cell.

Setup:
Host is my parts 3P, with a G&P bezel.

Battery 1
1xAW16340, 4.08V resting voltage

Battery 2
1xIMR16340, 4.08V resting voltage

Results:
Battery 1
Elapsed Normalized
time Lux (@0.96m)
(min)
0 1.00
1 0.97
2 0.96
3 0.94
4 0.93
5 0.92
6 0.91
7 0.90
8 0.89
13 0.86
18 0.83
21 0.81
24 0.79
26 0.78
36 0.73
41 0.71
46 0.68
51 0.65
56 0.58
61 0.54
66 0.48
71 0.34
75 0.11
76 0.08
81 0.00
AW16340 voltage on M30 shutdown, 3.160V.

Battery 2
Elapsed Normalized
time Lux (@0.96m)
(min)
0 1.00
1 0.97
2 0.96
3 0.94
4 0.92
5 0.90
6 0.78
11 0.71
16 0.66
21 0.61
26 0.56
31 0.51
36 0.46
41 0.42
46 0.38
51 0.34
58 0.29
61 0.26
66 0.14
68 0.07
71 0.05
78 0.00
IMR16340 voltage on M30 shutdown, 2.801V, recovering to 2.961V after 15 min.

(Note that the normalized lux figures above were measured at ~0.96m due to some space constraints -- a messy desk)

Hot spot lux measurements at 0.96m, after 2 min warmup (after which, I started the run time measurements above):
AW16340, 4300 lux
IMR16340, 5300 lux

I had previously recorded anomalously low lux readings from my M30, I believe because I was holding the light in my hand to measure the hot spot. I was probably not holding the light square to the light meter's sensor.

In the measurements above, both the meter and the light are resting on a bench, after I manually adjusted the light's position to give the max lux reading.

For reference, I measured the following for some other lights:

AW/Arcmania tower (SOB 1000, SSC P4 U2-bin) in a T-62 TurboHead, SF 6P body, 2xAW16340, 13200 lux
DX11836 in an SF 6P Pyrex bezel, SF 6P body, 2xAW17670, 11300 lux
Gladius, 2xSF123A, 2600 lux
SF G2, P60 LA, Lexan window, 5000 lux initially, 4600 lux steady state
SF 12ZM, N62 LA, T-62 TH, 4xDuracell123A, 18000 lux initially, slowly decreasing
SF 12ZM, N62 LA, T-62 TH, 2xIMR16340, 13000 lux initially, slowly decreasing
OpticsHQ TX2 single mode E2 conversion head, SF E1L body, 1xAW16340, 6800 lux

 

[etc]

Maybe some day I will do a runtime test on my 4x123 Leef body with primaries running a Malkoff module that runs on 5V-12V.
I am thinking 3 hours easy.

 

[Owen]

I did some lux and run time measurements today on my Malkoff M30. It looks like that my M30 never really runs in full regulation.

Yeah, from reading here before, the fact that the current dropped continuously with the voltage, instead of going up suggested that the M30 was not current regulated, and made it impossible for it to have constant output.
I have no meter to read lux, but the M60 maintains its total wattage throughout its runtime with protected cells. At least it did at the 1hr. point of my runtime test on my M60W, which went less than 5 minutes more before the batteries(2xAW 750mAh R123) entered protection mode.

Would have thought the lux reading on the M30 would be a lot higher than a P60.

 

[Kestrel]

The M30 has a higher hot spot lux measurement when driven by an IMR16340 vs AW16340. However, the AW16340 definitely had better run time -- about 1 hr to the 50% point, vs 30 min for the IMR cell.

That is very very interesting. By my admittedly rough calculation, that means that you could be approaching 300 lumens from the M30 running off of the IMR cell. This would explain the 50% loss in /runtime-to-half-output/, as the IMR has ~3/4 the mAh of the standard LiIon.

I wonder if the M60 would have similar behavior on IMR's, probably to a lesser extent (as it's apparently better regulated)? Curious to see what the M60's output would be running off of 2xIMR18650 for maximizing the cells' ability to supply current.

Thanks for the data.

 

[Owen]

No reason for brightness to change in a M60. It's current regulated.
Larger capacity cells will mean longer runtime, and the runtime might be a bit disproportionately longer vs. capacity due to less voltage drop(bigger cell maintains voltage longer, so amperage doesn't increase as quickly to compensate for voltage loss).
All you're likely to get from IMR cells in a M60 is less runtime vs. regular 18650s, though-because the voltage just isn't going to drop much on a pair of 2200-2600mAh cells running at 1/8 their safe discharge rate to begin with.

I really don't understand why IMR cells even enter discussion about low current LED lights. People are wasting their money on these things by not using them in appropriate setups, and actually losing performance instead of gaining it.
Their strength is in their ability to release lots of energy in a very short amount of time, and they're a waste even in most incans(I'd like some IMR-18500s for a IMR-M3T or MN21 in a bored out M3T, but respectively those have 6 and 9+ times the current draw of a Malkoff M60).
From the M30 plots above, the IMR cell was down to 50% of initial brightness in less than half the time a AW R123 was good for.
I can see maybe using one on a direct drive P7 hitting ~3A, but outside of a very high draw lights, I'm not seeing where the attraction to these cells come from unless people are just buying them because they're "better", and not bothering to learn about them first.
I'd encourage anybody using any kind of unprotected cells to learn about the risks imposed by those cells and about properly charging them before buying, and especially before using them. They can be dangerous.

 

[Justin Case]

I bought the IMR16340s for a different application where I needed the high current capability that is beyond the spec for the AW black wrapper cells. Since I had them, I decided to test them with the M30.

Note that the IMR also was driven to a relatively low voltage (~2.8V) when I decided to push the limits and I ran down the M30 until it shut off. Probably not a good idea to do this as a general rule. Instead change cells as soon as the light starts to dim noticeably.

Besides the shorter run time for the IMR, my measurements show that the AW black wrapper cell drives my M30 at a higher lux than the IMR cell does after 6 minutes of run time.

 

[Justin Case]

Yeah, from reading here before, the fact that the current dropped continuously with the voltage, instead of going up suggested that the M30 was not current regulated, and made it impossible for it to have constant output.
I have no meter to read lux, but the M60 maintains its total wattage throughout its runtime with protected cells. At least it did at the 1hr. point of my runtime test on my M60W, which went less than 5 minutes more before the batteries(2xAW 750mAh R123) entered protection mode.

Would have thought the lux reading on the M30 would be a lot higher than a P60.

Light meters are typically calibrated for tungsten lamps at ~2850K color temp. The specified meter accuracy is only for that light source. Anything else is probably a crap shoot. Similarly, light meters are typically designed to have similar spectral sensitivity as the average human eye. So who knows what the weird spectral curves of a white LED does to the lux measurement.

 

[Kestrel]

I wonder if the M60 would have similar behavior on IMR's, probably to a lesser extent (as it's apparently better regulated)?

No reason for brightness to change in a M60. It's current regulated. [...] All you're likely to get from IMR cells in a M60 is less runtime vs. regular 18650s, though-because the voltage just isn't going to drop much on a pair of 2200-2600mAh cells running at 1/8 their safe discharge rate to begin with. .

That's what folks have said about the M30 on 3.7v cells as well. Oh yeah, until SOMEBODY TESTED IT (post # 124). It's legitimate to ask a question, especially if there is experimental data which contradicts conventional wisdom i.e. "the M30 runs in regulation down to ~1v". I'm not knocking Malkoff modules here, they are fantastic, but experimental data is where it's at, not simply repeating what other people have posted. As of yet, there is no solid experimental data on the output of the M60 on IMR cells (here on CPF AFAIK). It's possible that there could be some sort of difference, albeit a much more modest one (presumably due to the excellent regulation of the M60 as-tested).

I know that the regulation is different between the M30 and M60 (boost vs. buck). Until today AFAIK it was not known that the M30 would behave differently running on IMR. What is still unknown is if the M60 will behave any differently at all on IMR.

In case you missed it, the M30 had a ~25% increase in initial lux by having more current available to it (i.e IMR chemistry).

I really don't understand why IMR cells even enter discussion about low current LED lights. People are wasting their money on these things by not using them in appropriate setups, and actually losing performance instead of gaining it.

Gaining ~50 lumens in an EXPERIMENT apparently falls outside of your understanding then.:shakehead

 

[Owen]

Light meters are typically calibrated for tungsten lamps at ~2850K color temp. The specified meter accuracy is only for that light source. Anything else is probably a crap shoot. Similarly, light meters are typically designed to have similar spectral sensitivity as the average human eye. So who knows what the weird spectral curves of a white LED does to the lux measurement.

Didn't know that. I wonder if there is some way to calibrate or reset it yourself(?). I haven't used a light meter before.

Sheer throw isn't a big deal to me, but I like how you can use the meter to plot how the brightness(and presumably the overall output) changes, or doesn't, throughout the runtime like you did for this thread.
That's good info that should help people make an informed choice when they buy. You may not get a lot of responses to what you posted, but rest assured it is appreciated, and will probably help some people.
Things like that and the tests some guys have done with the 17670 on the M30, have helped me decide to stick with the M60 models instead of buying another M30, and possibly to use my 17670s on them as well, where I would have just used R123s before:thumbsup:

 

[tundratrader]

Sifting through this post I have a question. I currently run a m60 in my c2 I have used it with primaries mainly I tried it in my fm body and the fit was not great so I didnt try it with 18500 cells. I just ordered the md2 and a new m60w. I was planning on just using primaries, but am I understanding correctly that it will work well on 1 18650 cell? I am super excited for this as a possibilty because I love using the recharables but also demand that I be able to use primaries as backup.

Zach

 

[Kestrel]

Sifting through this post I have a question. I currently run a m60 in my c2 I have used it with primaries mainly I tried it in my fm body and the fit was not great so I didnt try it with 18500 cells. I just ordered the md2 and a new m60w. I was planning on just using primaries, but am I understanding correctly that it will work well on 1 18650 cell? I am super excited for this as a possibilty because I love using the recharables but also demand that I be able to use primaries as backup.

Running an M60 on 1x18650 is a wonderful configuration as mentioned previously: near-maximum initial output, unbelieveably long runtimes with a gradual, graceful decline over many hours, prior to protection-circuit shutoff. The voltage drop of the single cell will be minimized when using a single 3.7v 18650 cell of such a large capacity, permitting an initial output of essentially the ~240 lumen spec. DHart is currently running this configuration after taking a number of lux measurements of two-cell vs single-cell M60 configurations (both using 3.7v LiIons) with very good results. I am also going to put this together using a single AW protected 18650. The M30 will of course beat the M60 on a single cell for output (by something like ~20%, depending on where you are in the first part of the run), but will be a distant distant second for overall runtime, as the M60 will dim gradually over many hours, providing adequate light as the single cell depletes prior to protection circuit shutoff. Enjoy your M60 w/ 1x18650.

 

[Forgoten214]

Any more information on the M60 w/1x18650?

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Any more information on the M60 w/1x18650?

Wealth of info in this thread. Did you read it all. Remember you can use info stated about the 17670. Just more runtime with 18650. Do a google, cpf only at the top of every page. Write in Malkoff + 17670, or try other combinations.

Bill

 

[Forgoten214]

Wealth of info in this thread. Did you read it all. Remember you can use info stated about the 17670. Just more runtime with 18650. Do a google, cpf only at the top of every page. Write in Malkoff + 17670, or try other combinations.

Bill

Oh. Well I am curious to see what kind of numbers people are getting while running the M60 in 18650.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Oh. Well I am curious to see what kind of numbers people are getting while running the M60 in 18650.

What kind of numbers? Do the searching. Info re LiIon's in M60 has been repeated many, many times in different threads. CPF is a wealth of info, all for the looking.

Bill

 

[Forgoten214]

What kind of numbers? Do the searching. Info re LiIon's in M60 has been repeated many, many times in different threads. CPF is a wealth of info, all for the looking.

Bill

ah yes of course then. I'm not an idiot. I am boosting the thread for a reason to see if there is updates. So before you start a flame fest to get your post ratings up some more I have done this obviously I found this thread.

 

[Forgoten214]

Is there anyone that actually posts anything useful or is it just people making posts about how others aren't using the search button?