Malkoff M60 & M30 Runtimes,etc

Bullzeyebill

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etc, you are looking at a buck/boost type circuit to run from one CR123 to 6 volts, or so. It is possible, though the effeciency would be lower than a straight boost or buck circuit. The M30 runs just fine with one CR123, and the M6LL (mine) runs at a lower output with one RCR123, or 18650; runs higher with two CR123's, and runs higher yet, (output) with two LI-Ions. I would like to see a nice boost circuit in the M60 format that would work with an M60LL, or M60L, and would be very effecient with two NiMh AA's. My M30 works just fine with two Eneloop AA's and ran 1 hour and 30+ minutes at flat regulation at what I would say was about 130 lumens, comparing reading from my lightmeter and bounce with other M60's that I own. I am also finding that my M60 is running at full output with one RCR123 (Powerizer-unprotected) for 15-20 minutes, and am waiting for a new charger to charge up some 18650's. Current draw from cell with one RCR123 is over one amp.

Bill
 

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I think ultimately 3 modules would handle all situations. I wish M30 could handle 2 primaries, but it doesn't.

1 cell module
2 cell module
3-4 cell module

Re: M30, I have very good luck running it on 3xAA as stated previously. NiMH light it up nicely unlike 2xAA NiMH with M60LL. OTOH, M60LL also works nicely with 3xAA config. Come to think of it, I have no real need for M30 as I don't use single cell configuration as much, meaning 1x123, and if I use 1x18650, I would like to use 2x123 also, which is impossible with M30. So it's redundant. But fun.

If I could, I would get at least 3 M60LL modules:
1st - in 3xAA config
2nd - in 1x18650 config
3rd - in 2x18650/4x123 config (spec'ed to run on 5-12V)

M60LL is the most flexible module I can find right now. It appears to be only half as bright as M60, or rather M60 appears to be only twice as bright. Inside, M60 has no advantage whatsoever. The only real advantage of M60 is outside, at 50-100m range, where M60 totally destroys M60LL.
M60LL that runs on 5-12V is what I want in a TSHTF situation.
 
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Justin Case

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Of course SF does not make a C/C 4-cell body, maybe that explains everything. That's another issue, why don't they? I find it astounding. What would you call it? 12P?

If you mean a 4x123A body that is threaded at the tail and head for the SF Classic 6P family, SureFire made the now discontinued 12PM/ZM:

L to R: 6Z with SRTH, 12ZM with TRTH, 12ZM with old-style 6Z bezel
SureFire6ZwithSRTH12ZMwithT-6212ZMw.jpg


You could also add a 1x123A extender to a 9P.
 

etc

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Interesting. Why did they discontinue it? 4x123 is my favorite form factor. Not to mention crazy runtime from any Malkoff or any P60 module.
It's actually pretty compact. Not enough demand from consumers I suppose.

There are 18650 cells that are approaching 3,000 mAh and it's just a matter of time before you can buy protected ones. Think between 3 and 4 hours for a M60 type module in regulation.
 

Justin Case

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IIRC, the 12ZM/PM was replaced by the M4. Unfortunately, the M4 head threading is for the Millennium series, so you need a KT4 TH (or I assume a Z46 will also work). SRTHs, TRTHs, and KT1/KT2s aren't thread compatible.

I believe that FiveMega/Nite sells a 2x18650 C tail/C head body. You can use that for a 4x123A host.
 

etc

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I am aware of M4 but not ready to make a commitment to the new "M" head... I like C/C.
Yes, I like FM and Leef bodies about the same.

The best thing about 4x123 is you can use 2x18650 and vice-versa, with the right module. It's great to have that flexibility. And the 18650 cell seems to get most development these days. Resulting in greatest runtime in a not so big package, and yes, you can EDC it often enough.
 

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http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=229135

According to one of the charts in the sticky and my estimate before I saw the charts, M60 on 1x18650 is about 185 lumens, and M60 on 2x18650 or 2x123 is of course 235 lumens as well established.

In other words, there is a 50 lumen difference between running M60 on 1 cell or 2. Yes, it's very obviously less bright but does enjoy greater runtime. M60 is of course brightest on 3 cells.


Secondly, just got M60L, I think it's my favorite module now.
It's astounding with 2 cells, giving the full 140 lumens but putting it in 1x18650 configuration I would think it hits about 100 lumens, just a bit brighter than M60LL on full power (which is 80 lumens).
Either way, M60L is a great balance of power/runtime.

Now as for M60LL on 1 cell, it is considerably less bright on 1x18650 than on 2 cells. Looking at the extensive runtime charts, we see that M60LL on 2 cells is 7000 lux and on 1 cell, 4000 lux, or 57% as bright, or about 50 lumens vs 80 lumens on full power.
 
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tundratrader

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Couple questions.
I am rigging one of my M60's either warm or regular to use in my SF G3L-FYL. I need max runtime because this is going to be in my EMT gear. I know extended runtimes are not advised in the Nitrolon. I know the output is about the same but what is my best battery option in the three cell size. 3 SF 123's, 2 17500's or 17670 and a spacer cell. Give me a quick runtime idea on each. I am actually considering one of the M60L's as an alternative but I really like having a spotlight in my pocket when I need it. Hopefully I can just score another m61 to throw into it someday. I have become so spoiled with just using 18650's with these that I have not paid attention to three cell configurations. I just need the extra length of the three cell so it comes out of my pocket easier.

Also by the way the M61 absolutely rips it up with a fresh 18650. I used my light alot today probably 2 hours at least I would guess and I pulled the fluke out as soon as I got home and had 3.977 volts left in the cell. That is impressive.

Thanks,
Zach
 

Kestrel

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Couple questions.
I am rigging one of my M60's either warm or regular to use in my SF G3L-FYL. I need max runtime because this is going to be in my EMT gear. I know extended runtimes are not advised in the Nitrolon. I know the output is about the same but what is my best battery option in the three cell size. 3 SF 123's, 2 17500's or 17670 and a spacer cell. Give me a quick runtime idea on each. I am actually considering one of the M60L's as an alternative but I really like having a spotlight in my pocket when I need it.
Difficult goal with a full-power M60, a three-cell SF nitrolon (17mm) host, and no McC2S switch.

Runtime on 2x 17500 should be ~ 1h 45 minutes. 1x 17670 plus spacer should obtain ~200 initial lumens for ~ an hour, dropping off gradually over ~4 hours total down to a still-quite-usable 10-20 lumens or so. 3x SF CR123 primaries should be ~comparable to 2x17500 (check out my watt-hour calculations here comparing 1x 17670 to 2x SF CR123 primaries (among a wide variety of other cell options), and just scale the comparison in a proportional manner to get to 3x CR123 vs 2x 17500 - all the necessary capacity data that you need are in that post of mine, & my HP calculators aren't at arms reach at the moment. :))

The bummer thing about 2x LiIon for your EMT application is that upon depletion, one protection circuit in a stack will trigger: 240 lumens to zero lumens in an instant. Yes, I know that you've been spoiled with the gradual, predictable fade from using your M60 / single 18650 combo. :)

If you were going to use an aluminum SF host instead of the nitrolon, boring for 18mm cells is possible, plus there is the long shot at the rare McC2S switch in existing aluminum Z41 tailcaps for a lower-output / long-runtime option as well.

Assuming that you're using the aluminum bezel on the nitrolon G3 of course - otherwise there are the usual heat issues with the full-power M60.


Fun stuff, really. I use my three-cell SF hosts quite a bit and think about these aspects now and then. BTW I definitely understand the desire for this setup to use the full-power M60 instead of the M60L or LL - sometimes there just isn't a substitute for maximum output. :)
 
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tundratrader

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It is aluminum head. So basically my best bet is to put my C2 in my pocket as usual!

I couldnt decipher your thread at this late hour. What will the 3 cell theoretical runtime be?

The 18650 Malkoff combo is unbeatable.
 

Kestrel

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I couldnt decipher your thread at this late hour. What will the 3 cell theoretical runtime be?
LOL, yeah, in that post I really got into the calcs didn't I? ;-)

I'd be happy to calculate your potential watt-hour configurations using my data from that post of mine tomorrow.

Late hour? Late hour??? Here I am in the Pacific Time Zone, 12:30 AM. It's only 11:30 PM where you are. :p:p
 

etc

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I ran M60 on 2x18500 cells (Surefire 9P sized package bored to 18mm) non-stop and got a solid 2:17 hours runtime.
The cells were AW protected 18500 cells with 1500 mAh capacity, at 4.2V fully charged on Pila charger.

I think on 3x123 cells, which is what you are asking, you will get the same runtime.

Anecdotal evidence, but it seems that using the lite in short bursts results in lesser runtime. I don't have solid data to back it up and I am maybe 100% wrong here but that was my perception. If using the lite for 20-second bursts here and there, they just didn't seem to add up to 2:17 hours. Maybe there is a scientific explanation for this.

But that was one reason why I moved to M60L on 1x18650, I get greater runtime, enough practical brightness and the best thing is, I am able to use non-protected 18650 cells, which means it never dies on me in an insant.

Running M60 on AW's protected cells in some critical situation is IMO a very bad idea.


The module is (relatively) hungry, the runtime will go by faster than you think or perceive and will leave you in the dark at the worst possible time, just cut off with no warning. I don't know about other people but I cannot accurately gauge an hour or two, especially if it's not continuous but in small chunks and you are not really sure how much has passed and how much remains.

I was once fixing my radiator late at night on the side of the road, think 2AM and with 18-wheelers flying past me and of course the !)(*&# thing cut out on me as I needed it most. I got a reload going quickly but in the dark it's *not difficult* to panic and reverse the cells, frying the module, so then you have no lite at all (Unless you have a backup lite).

Use primaries (123) for anything remotely important... and enjoy 2 hours of regulated runtime and then a long tail of diminish lite. Protected cells are not the answer to everything and not for everyone. Come to think of it, I haven't been using protected cells in a long time now.

Or use 1x18650 cell, non-protected that will not cut out on you. You can see the thing get pretty dim below 3.7V so time to recharge. That's what I do.

If you want max power in small package, use M30. If you use a 3P body or a 6P with a spacer cell, you get very bright lite that won't cut out on you. I tested M30 on 1x123 and it seemed as bright as M60 on 2 cells. I didn't check runtime however. The runtime suffers but what do you care if you expect it, and carry spares.
 
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Bullzeyebill

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M30 on one CR123 will be approximately 130 lumens, and will have similar output with two NiMh's, pulling about 1 amp from the cell(s). I have derived this approximate info using bounce with light meter and comparing M60 to M30.

The M61 is very interesting, pulling about 680mA's from one Powerizer RCR123, or 18650, and showing a lux number (bounce with light meter) of 24, compared to my M30 draw of 1.20-1.50 amps with a lux number of 23. You have the output of the M30 with much less draw from a LiIon cell. Using the M61 with two RCR123's the lux numbers are 27.5 to 28.5. These lux numbers were taken after the lights had been on for 2 minutes.

Bill
 

BigHonu

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With a brand spanking new light meter, a milk-carton/duct tape light box, and a few ceiling bounce tests, I attempted to compare some of my lights, and try and come up with some Flawed Assumption Lumen Estimations (FALE's) based upon a weighted conversion factor using lumen figures from MrGman, Don, and the Malkoff site.

I won't pretend that the FALE's have any legitimate purpose other than to compare the lights I have on hand when measured on that particular day. Still, it was fun setting up, and made me appreciate what other members who do reviews have to go through.


Cutting to the results, this is what I came up with:

Light……....Battery…………….....Lux(ceiling)……Lux(box)……FALE
M60 #1…..1x18650 AW2600………11.7…………...5630………..173
M60 #1…..2xCR123……………….....14.1…………...7590………..220
M60 #1…..2x18500 AW1500………15.2…………...7670………..230
M60 #1…..3xCR123……………….....15.2…………...7680………..230

M60 #2…..3xCR123……………….....15.1…………...7930………..233

M61………..1x18650 AW2600……...15.8…………..8980………..254
M61………..2xCR123……………….....16.1…………...9140………..258
M61………..2x18500 AW1500……...n/a.…………...9160………..261
M61………..3xCR123………………......n/a.…………...9130………..260

M60L……...1x18650 AW2600……...6.9…………...4220………..115
M60L……...2xCR123………………......8.2…………...5020………..136
M60L……...2x18500 AW1500……...9.2…………...5510………..152
M60L……...3xCR123………………......9.2…………...5550………..152

M60LL.…...1x18650 AW2600……...n/a…………..1830………….52
M60LL.…...2xCR123………………......n/a…………..2780………….79
M60LL.…...2x18500 AW1500……...n/a…………..3290………….94
M60LL.…...3xCR123………………......n/a…………..3290………….94

Haiku XP-G…...Low……………….....0.4…………...240…………….7
Haiku XP-G….Medium…………….....3.3…………..1820…………..52
Haiku XP-G…..High……………….....11.3…………..6400..........181


What I did find interesting was that I did not see the big jump in output with the M60LL from 2xCR123's to 3xCR123's. I just got the M60LL this week, and it is a production model. Perhaps there was a change in the driver at some point?
 
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txgp17

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Running M60 on AW's protected cells in some critical situation is IMO a very bad idea.
Amen.
I'm a career firefighter. My personal light is a $urefire 6P with a M60LL running on primaries. After playing with protected Li-ion's for a while, I vow to never use them in a situation where my life may depend on it.

In my night stand is a 9P with a M61, it too runs on primaries. And the X300 weapon light runs on primaries too.

On the other hand, I keep a PD30 in my pocket every day. It runs on RCR123's. Every other utility light I have runs on AW protected cells to save money. But I refuse to purchase a 2x18650 body cause I can't drop primaries in it (without a spacer) without blowing the M60.
 
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Bullzeyebill

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BigHonu, I liked you numbers for the M61 with one 18650 (AW). My lux number doing bounce was lower, compared to two LiIons, and I used the MD2. What was your host for the 18650?

Bill
 
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