Bored With Surefire?

[iapyx]

Not bored at all with my U2 and U2A, only impatient waiting for a UA2 & UB3 (UB2 has likely been abandoned). I really think it's a fantastic light with a super UI. A bit more lumen would be nice.

Or did you mean having my SF (U2A) bored to fit a rechargeable battery.

 

[Search]

Look at what SureFire does before they release a light. The R&D, the developing, the testing, the re-doing everything until a LOT of people are happy. Try to find how much testing their lights go through. You might be surprised to find out who is testing them. Not only engineers in labs, but soldiers, cops, operators (tactical term), etc.

They have their main market, they have their standards that they pretty much have to meet. What it takes for one company to put a light on the market is probably no where near what SF does.

They produce Military/LE capable lights for everyone. This is expensive on their end. That plus the immense quality that goes with it is why the price tag is so high. I would pay double to be honest. They don't need innovations.

If you want to get real, every task in the world can be performed with one of SureFires lights. The one that is best suited for that job will do it as well as anything else.They don't have the bells and whistles, but those are usually what gets in the way.

It comes down to this: Their lights are researched, designed, tested, produced, and sold to be used in the hardest conditions, but intended for anyone who wants it. The price tag reflects the workmanship.

Even past that, they can put something in your hand to do anything you need. Given that there is a darn good chance it's going to work the whole time, I would say there isn't much to be bored with.

They have put way too much time and effort into what they have now. If they changed, a lot of people would be really lost, and I don't mean the collectors.

 

[rmteo]

Look at what SureFire does before they release a light.

Where please?

 

[o0o]

Not bored with Surefire, but not happy with many models. I do not like the TIR optics, even the improved version. Make mine with textured reflectors, please.

Also, brighter isn't always better, especially when run time sucks. I don't see a point of a "high" setting that may only run at full power for a few minutes. Would rather have a little less brightness, and a high mode that lasts a couple hours at full power.

Finally, is it too much to ask for Surefire to make ONE practical model? Something that runs on AA alkaline that one can pick up in TimBuck2 at a fairly reasonable price (in other words, if one is in the middle of nowhere on a trip, AA batteries may be the only option)? I realize Surefire specializes on tactical products, but will it kill them to make ONE long running model that can use standard batteries?

Don't get me wrong, I love Surefire and I also collect them. I just wish they'd offer a little more choices.

 

[Size15's]

Finally, is it too much to ask for Surefire to make ONE practical model? Something that runs on AA alkaline that one can pick up in TimBuck2 at a fairly reasonable price (in other words, if one is in the middle of nowhere on a trip, AA batteries may be the only option)? I realize Surefire specializes on tactical products, but will it kill them to make ONE long running model that can use standard batteries?

ICON is PK's adventure into this sort of territory...

 

[ColoradoStoneman]

.... That plus the immense quality that goes with it is why the price tag is so high. I would pay double to be honest. They don't need innovations .....

The price tag reflects the workmanship.

Double?

Take the Surefire T1A Titan for example. $239 ??? For a small light with a single CR123A, I would have to say that I prefer my $55 Fenix LD20.

Besides the fact that you can buy four LD20's and 12 batteries to feed them for the same amount of money. The LD20 will tail stand, has more modes, and is also brighter. If they were the same price, I would still choose the LD20.

In my opinion, Surefire value depends on the model. Obviously, they will sell the T1A in local Surefire dealer stores, because there is no competition. People that don't know about Fenix, Nitecore, and the other choices, will think the T1A is amazing.

I really like the Surefire E2D LED. I would probably prefer it to my Jet-III M, other then one problem. It won't take an 18650. If it did, I would have propably shelled out the extra $60.

Surefire makes good stuff, but they are getting behinds the curve. Some of the pricing is way too high.

On the other hand some models are not bad. My 6PD with the LF lamp and 16340's is a great incand. torch. And unlike a 9P with a P91, I get the light without replacing 3 CR123 batteries every 20 minutes. On top of that, I can buy two LF lamp modules for the price of one P91.

I didn't mind paying $80 for the 6PD, but it took some aftermarket stuff for it to reach full potential. I think they do need innovations.

 

[Willieboy]

I'm not bored with SureFire at all. I buy their lights for their build quality, not the latest technology.

I agree they're quite expensive, but that's the cost of American labor. To respond to competitive pressures, I would expect them tp come out with a second, foreign made line. If they don't, I would expect them to go the way of the American car makers, sans the bailouts...I hope.

 

[Size15's]

To respond to competitive pressures, I would expect them tp come out with a second, foreign made line.

ICON is PK's adventure into this sort of territory...

 

[NotRegulated]

I started using Surefire lights with their introduction of the 6R. I had been using large rechargeable Streamlight lights up until then and the introduction of a small rechargeable light was a breakthrough. At the time, CR123's were very expensive and not something you would use on a regular basis. The 6R worked well for the time. I still own them but don't use the B65 battery anymore!

Surefire hasn't really pursued the small form-factor rechargeable light (smaller than the 8 series models) because I think the civilian market has not been their primary business focus, the drop in the price of quality CR123's and extended runtime/efficiency of the newer LED's they don't need to. I'm not bored with Surefire. I think their E1B is one of the best small lights to come out of late.

But it is a testament to Surefire's market position that a whole host of aftermarket products have emerged. Using the dependability and quality Surefire lights as hosts, the aftermarket products such as high powered LED's, rechargeable chemistries and inexpensive CR123's you can transform your two or three cell lights to state of the art brightness or runtime.

Also, I personally don't confuse appearance with quality. Many are not happy with type II coatings showing wear rather quickly. I have early model lights with the finish heavily worn off that are still working as dependable today as the day I bought them. They are upgraded with new LED's and are still used regularly.

 

[russthetoolman]

Disclaimer, not for the easily offended or those that take things personal, like the world revolves around you

If you want to know why Surefire's are what they are, ask a soldier that uses them. I did, on Memorial Day.
They are designed to work under stress and not fail. Surefire catalogs show pictures of rugged ads, not taking the trash out and walking the dog to go poop, not their market.
I own over 70 lights, $10-$800, and when I fly and make a choice of what light carry, it's my L1 and ARC LSHP, because they don't fail. Price and lumen's doesn't concern me in regards to my life, and primary batteries are proven.


I love Surefire knurling, so I look at the cost of their knurling is the price difference

How many rich people say they won't buy a BMW or Mercedes because they are behind in technology from Lexus or Volvo. This is like people that don't like Caterpillar equipment because they can't afford it, though they call their John Deere or Case a Cat and it isn't in the same league.


So that is my reply to a question that shows a lack in ability to discriminate features and quality between something called a "flashlight" from different manufacturers with different mission statements. Newest isn't the best, that's a judgment.
You may read this as coming off gruff, I see it as the truth. Cheap people want quality for nothing. That's an illusion...
Russ
And the best argument for owning Surefires is because I can and you won't :nana:
Some of us have worked with the best and know why it has the reputation it carries. It is the men and women of the companies that put so much effort and love into the designs and manufacture and care about what the end users think of their creations.
Ask yourself this, if you won the lottery, you wouldn't buy Surefire?
I know the truthful answer, do you?

 

[Federal LG]

I´m just bored with Surefire overprices and their customer service (it doesn´t work well for us, US outsiders).

The rest is all good... I love their lights! :thumbsup:

Maybe it´s not the brightest or the best UI or LED, but their construction and durability are INVINCIBLE!

 

[iapyx]

....
They are designed to work under stress and not fail....

Hmm, I disagree with you. First I have to say that I love my U2 and U2A, but once I dropped my light in the house on the floor and the tailcap broke. Sent SF an e-mail and the CS was superb. But the thing is that they do fail. And I am not the only one with a broken tailcap. According to me a SF-light may fail (although I was surprised) as long as they (SF CS) help you out.

And what about this thread (broken clip of a LX2).
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=236453

Ok, I think that the U2 and U2A are lights developed for the civil market. Does SF make stronger lights for the professional?

Anyway, not bored or 'unthrilled' at all with SF.

 

[ColoradoStoneman]

I agree they're quite expensive, but that's the cost of American labor.

Maglite seems to keep costs down using American labor. But they seem to suffer from the same lack of innovation.

Like Surefire, they make some nice hosts for great mods, but for some reason don't really utilize the lastest technology. The Mag LED stuff is OK at best.

The MagCharger with a Cree MC-E quad would be quite a thrower, and an easy to use consumer friendly rechargeable. Using a warmer Cree would also make the transition for Incand. folks a little easier with little loss in lumens.

I see no reason why it couldn't be priced at around $130 retail, and maybe even less.

Maglite and Surefire have a distribution network into the stores. In their prospective classes at the retail store level, they are the only game in town.

At the same time, most people think a $20 flashlight is TOO expensive.

 

[seaside]

Not bored, but wondered why.
Surefire heavily focused on military/legal enforcement market that requires tank-like reliability over anything else. But sometimes I wonder why surefire don't really care for civilian market. Maybe they don't need to as long as enough number of civilians are willing to pay higher price for theirs. That's like the best of the both worlds... at least, for now.

 

[Federal LG]

Not bored, but wondered why.
Surefire heavily focused on military/legal enforcement market that requires tank-like reliability over anything else. But sometimes I wonder why surefire don't really care for civilian market. Maybe they don't need to as long as enough number of civilians are willing to pay higher price for theirs. That's like the best of the both worlds... at least, for now.

I think they care about civilian market. There is a lot of SF marketing material made for the civilian market. In their website there is a lot of lights designed to "outdoor" and "general" use, pics of people in caves, camping, fishing, hunting... things like that.

 

[dchao]

And can anyone tell me what makes the T1A worth $239? I know quality has its price. But what makes it worth almost $100 more than the E1B?

You must understand it's quite complicated to reduce the light output from an LED while maintaining it's output characteristics. If you simply reduce the supply current to the LED, the tint will shift. So most of the multi-output LED lights have an microprocessor inside that turns the LED on and off very fast in order to reduce the lumens output. In technical term, it's called the duty cycle of the Pulse Width Modulation (PCM).

Now in a variable output light like the T1A. The microprocessor must continuously monitor the bezel dial, and adjust the duty cycle on the fly. So the software is far more complicated. There must be a digital rotation sensor so the microprocessor can read bezel position. (Microprocessors can only read digital signal, so you can't just use a cheap potentiometer, unless you use more expensive microprocessor that has a built-in Analog-to-Digital Converter). All this technologies, pack into the head assembly, that's less than 2cm diameter x 2cm tall.

 

[Size15's]

You must understand it's quite complicated to reduce the light output from an LED while maintaining it's output characteristics. If you simply reduce the supply current to the LED, the tint will shift. So most of the multi-output LED lights have an microprocessor inside that turns the LED on and off very fast in order to reduce the lumens output. In technical term, it's called the duty cycle of the Pulse Width Modulation (PCM).

Now in a variable output light like the T1A. The microprocessor must continuously monitor the bezel dial, and adjust the duty cycle on the fly. So the software is far more complicated. There must be a digital rotation sensor so the microprocessor can read bezel position. (Microprocessors can only read digital signal, so you can't just use a cheap potentiometer, unless you use more expensive microprocessor that has a built-in Analog-to-Digital Converter). All this technologies, pack into the head assembly, that's less than 2cm diameter x 2cm tall.

The flaw with your explanation is that you should know that here on CPF SureFire are behind the curve with flashlight innovation and technology so SureFire must have an out-of-date, old-tech, so-simple-everybody-could-do-it-but-strangely-decide-not-to method. The alternative which hardly bears contemplating is that some CPFers may not know as much about SureFires as they think.

Al :tinfoil:

 

[mega_lumens]

A lot of SF models are redundant especially the incan lines. For LEDs, I would expect SF to be an industry leader for better efficiency and color bins at least. If Malkoff does it, so can a mega company like SF without significant cost increases. But I also see lights like Kroma, E2DL, and Saint as leaps in design with very smart features that are practical.
At times, I'm not convinced that SF is justified with their pricing and feel like they do it because they can. They were the first company to dominate the military market and they continue to do so because of good reputation. Our military is known for throwing money around and contractors thrive on that.

Five years ago, there were fewer new flashlight makers and with questionable quality in production, but toady there are so many with quality products that it is hard to keep up. When Kroma came out with its selector ring, it was like a change from a CD to MP3, but now other makers are introducing similar technology. I personally don't look at SF as if it's the last hope for R&D and quality lights because others do introduce better lights as well.

A lot of guys maybe disappointed in new lights this year because we were use to having newer generations of LEDs for past several years, and now that kinda slowed down, but it doesn't mean SF or anyone else is "boring." I'm sure we will be seeing a lot of exciting designs form SF in near future.

 

[whatsafoton]

They are designed to work under stress and not fail. Surefire catalogs show pictures of rugged ads, not taking the trash out and walking the dog to go poop, not their market.
I own over 70 lights, $10-$800, and when I fly and make a choice of what light carry, it's my L1 and ARC LSHP, because they don't fail. Price and lumen's doesn't concern me in regards to my life, and primary batteries are proven.


So that is my reply to a question that shows a lack in ability to discriminate features and quality between something called a "flashlight" from different manufacturers with different mission statements. Newest isn't the best, that's a judgment.
You may read this as coming off gruff, I see it as the truth. Cheap people want quality for nothing. That's an illusion...

Can you scientifically back that up? Because there is another thread where a Fenix light is torture tested by freezing, boiling, dropped, and run over by a car several times. So unless you are prepared to test a surefire against another brand side by side scientifically, then your opinion is no different than the marketing fluff it sounds like.

 

[Armed_Forces]

The flaw with your explanation is that you should know that here on CPF SureFire are behind the curve with flashlight innovation and technology so SureFire must have an out-of-date, old-tech, so-simple-everybody-could-do-it-but-strangely-decide-not-to method. The alternative which hardly bears contemplating is that some CPFers may not know as much about SureFires as they think.

Al :tinfoil:

Good to see you FINALLY coming around Al !





@OP,
Whether or not you are "bored" with Surefire largely depends on what you are personally looking for in a flashlight and how cutting edge you wish to be. I'm glad to see that this thread was allowed to stand. Surefire always seems like a very touchy subject. What I think is the biggest difference is your application and the background you are coming from. A Surefire flashlight is a premium quality TOOL designed for a purpose. This will limit it to geeks just looking for the latest cutting edge TOY . NOT saying that is always the case, but I'm trying for simplification and not trying to put down, nor rule out other flashlights used as "tools". If you've ever been a professional in a certain field, there's always these comparisons based on COST of what the pros used compared to x,y,z brand. Anyone that buys and actually uses tools for a living will know exactly what I'm talking about. e.g. Fluke vs. Mastech/RadioShack, SnapOn vs. Craftsman, Makita vs. Ryobi. etc. If you are using a tool every day you immediately appreciate the differences and especially the durability obtained from the R&D that the top manufacturers devote to their products. Cost quickly becomes secondary and forgotten about in the long run, especially if you're earning a living with them or depending on them for your life.