18650 - Are protected batteries ALWAYS better?

[recDNA]

Separators with shutdown capability are designed so that the separator fuses at temperatures much lower than the thermal runaway temperature. Thermal runaway typically takes minutes, not msecs (but the actual time depends on many parameters).

Thanks. That's good news. Makes me feel a little safer using an unprotected battery.... Assuming it really does have the HRL. No way for user to really check.

 

[staticx57]

I would imagine in cell protections would cause something like this:
instead of something like this:

 

[StorminMatt]

Thanks. That's good news. Makes me feel a little safer using an unprotected battery.... Assuming it really does have the HRL. No way for user to really check.

This is certainly one of those situations where it is best to buy quality cells.

 

[Dr. Mario]

I would imagine in cell protections would cause something like this

Correct. It's the primary purpose for heat resistant layer (HRL) ceramic separator - that is, preventing disastrous cell meltdown from really occurring.

And, yes, I agree. Buy the quality cell. You will never know if and when you will need the specification "cushion" and safety design when things go AWOL.

BTW, I wonder about this store: liionwholesale.com - is it legit or not? (If URL link is not permitted, I will edit it so you guys can google search for it). I usually go to Powerizer Batteryspace for my cell fixes, including the elusive A123 LiFePO4 cells.

 

[space-cowboy]

There are many informations here that are not correct.
I can write the whole page here....but basically here it is in a few words:

HRL has nothing to do with shutting down the cell in case of dead short (external).
High drain batteries are not safer than regular NCR Panasonic batteries (it is quite opposite).
The whole thing about safe chemistry is misunderstood.
Try to short one High Drain (rated 10A, and higher) cell, and one bare NCR18650B - see what happens.
Device (inside NCR Panasonics A, B, G series) that should protect against thermal runaway (when dead short happens) is called PTC.

Now the bad part about bare unprotected cells that people do not know:

Any unprotected cell that is rated above 10A is without PTC.
Manufacturers have to take it out to maintain low int. resistance, and performance under high load.
So it is basically your high Amp cell and you (and dead short that will eventually happen - better not )

On that video above you can clearly see why we not suppose to use Unprotected 18650 batteries.
It is very dangerous, and protection should be attached to the bare cell.

This video is for all those who Like to recommend Unprotected 18650 . Watch how safety layers inside bare battery can protect you
https://youtu.be/xS8LsPv1_uM


About that store: Selling fake rated batteries to naive people (mostly from vape community). 35 Amp, 40 Amp, 60 Amp - all fakes, and dangerous.

When battery seller (any seller) knowingly post fake data in product title: "35A battery" or "60 Amp battery",
and he knows that Amp limit is nowhere close to that fake rating then that same battery seller is also knowingly exposing his customers to some serious risks of injury.
So much about being legit and honest to the customer.

 

[Connor]

https://youtu.be/xS8LsPv1_uM

So this guy put a 18650 (likely a high drain one too) in his pockets with his keys/whatever where it shorted and had time to cook up to critical temperature and vent with flame.
I'm sure this was very scary and hurt a lot but my compassion is limited. You can't handle any 18650 like that .. because .

#usererror

 

[pse]

Unprotected 18650 batteries.
It is very dangerous, and protection should be attached to the bare cell.
https://youtu.be/xS8LsPv1_uM

What do think about Zebralight? The lights have inbuilt protection, according to ZL of higher quality then the Seiko ones used in protected cells. They said, that the thin wire from the PCB under the wrapper was a concern, therefore new models are compatible only with unprotected cells...

 

[CoherentRays]

BTW, I wonder about this store: liionwholesale.com - is it legit or not? (If URL link is not permitted, I will edit it so you guys can google search for it). I usually go to Powerizer Batteryspace for my cell fixes, including the elusive A123 LiFePO4 cells.

Yes, Liion is legit. I placed an order about 3 weeks ago and got everything I ordered quite quickly. You get a price break if you order 4 or more batteries and I think the next price break is at 25 or more. At that point everything in your cart shows another price decrease.

Ed

 

[Dr. Mario]

CoherentRays, thanks for confirming.

 

[Dr. Mario]

I have been using unprotected cells and no disasters so far because I knew better after an extremely close call. (Made a mistake years ago when I was building a battery pack - which is ironic because it occasionally is dangerous to put a protection circuit on the bare cells, one mistake and it's over. I now know to check every cells' polarity before I put on buss strips, and finally connect it to the BMS.)

I haven't forgotten all the bangs and fires. Now I check every single bare cells that sees some uses, and recharge them if necessary - and discard those expired cells.

 

[super kermit]

I would rather pay more for the batteries and be sure they are 100% real and legit.

Who is the best seller to buy protected 18650's from and specifically which brand and model should I buy please.

 

[recDNA]

I would rather pay more for the batteries and be sure they are 100% real and legit.

Who is the best seller to buy protected 18650's from and specifically which brand and model should I buy please.

Are you in USA?
Tell us the flashlight you want them for. Protected batteries may not fit in every flashlight. There are button top and flat top. And again some flashlights require the button and in others they are even tighter with the button.

Understanding that without the above info I can only guess if this battery is best for you one good choice is Orbtronic 3500mAh Protected 18650 Battery Li-ion 3.7V Rechargeable Orbtronic 10A (Panasonic inside) Dual Protection - For High Performance Flashlights - Case Included

You buy directly from Orbtronic in USA. I don't think it is allowed for me to paste a link but you will have no trouble finding Orbtronic by Googling.

 

[super kermit]

I am in Australia and would need shipping.

I need the button top.

 

[super kermit]

Hi recDNA,

Awesome advice and thank you for answering my Q

Just looked and battery looks amazing, but the shipping on 10 batteries is $55 US.

Any better options for using a different site to save some money on shipping?

OR

different brand that also has dual protection please?

If I cannot get the orbtronics for cheaper shipping and went for a different brand/model and site, which would you suggest.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to a newbie too

 

[recDNA]

I don't know who is the official dealer for Olight in Australia but they make a good protected button top also.

 

[super kermit]

I don't know who is the official dealer for Olight in Australia but they make a good protected button top also.

Great, any olight is ok as long as protected?

 

[oKtosiTe]

Great, any olight is ok as long as protected?

Olight was too long for my EagleTac G25C2-II. It really helps to know what light you're buying for.

 

[recDNA]

Olight was too long for my EagleTac G25C2-II. It really helps to know what light you're buying for.

Very good point! If we knew the flashlight we could give better recommendations. I only went with Olight because of the op expressed desire for safety. I think the new ones may have the safest protection (no wire in the side) but they are also very long.

 

[Gauss163]

...HRL has nothing to do with shutting down the cell in case of dead short (external)...

But it does if Panasonic's "HRL" (or its latest incarnation) incorporates a multilayer separator design with shutdown capability (as I described above).

 

[recDNA]

But it does if Panasonic's "HRL" (or its latest incarnation) incorporates a multilayer separator design with shutdown capability (as I described above).

Trouble is we don't know for sure which Panasonics have it. It's the GA I'm curious about. Maybe some lunatic on YouTube will test it.