Budget alternative to PD35 / P12 for general use

ShaggyDog

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Hi, new forum member here so please go easy on me is this has already been discussed before.

I'm looking for a budget flashlight for just general purpose domestic use and a possibly a few occasional camping trips. I've just started looking at flashlights one that caught my eye straight away was the Fenix PD35 which looks like a great torch but is maybe a little overkill for what I need it for. There's also the Nitecore P12 and the Led Lenser P7.2 as alternatives but I want to see what some options are for a lower budget say around £25 ($40). I want something that's fairly durable, tail standing would be nice, and it doesn't have to be super bright. As I'm in the UK there isn't always a great choice that I can can check out in the shops, I've seen the Feit Electrics 1000 lumens torch in Costco but I reckon there's got to be something better than that around. Also I don't have any batteries or chargers as yet so that's something to factor in as well I suppose.
 

markr6

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Are you comfortable using Li-Ion cells? These would take the 18650 size or 2xCR123a cells. Plan on $35 or so for a couple 18650s and a good charger.

You could get something like the Convoy M2. You choice of tint and output current for about $25 online. Or the Convoy S2 for about $15. I don't own one personally, but looks like a great value.
 

Poppy

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I agree with markr6, and would like to suggest the Convoy line of lights.

I have both the S2, and the S2+. The + has a newer, more efficient emitter, so for the extra $2 or so, get the + version, although you can't go wrong with either. With a small reflector and relatively large emitter, the beam is bright, and floody, which is generally better for up close work out to about 100 feet or so. I really like them for general purpose, and camping lights.

This weekend four of us went camping. Each had an 18650 light, the $109 light failed, while the solarforce (with a XML2 @ 2.8A) ~$25, Convoy C8 ~ $17, and the convoy S2+ ~ $17, all worked perfectly. Like mark stated, 2 good batteries, and a charger will cost nearly $40, but you can't go wrong with the Convoy line.

The M1 and M2 are a little larger, and the C8 a little larger yet. The larger lights have a tighter beam, and throw further, and have more mass so that they can be driven harder (thereby emitting more light) but at the expense of battery run-time.

I like the S2+ driven at 1400ma, and the C8 at 2800ma. That gives me a nice blend beam width and reach and battery conservation or not. By having two lights, one is a back up for the other, and also a spare battery carrier.
 
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WarRaven

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I agree with markr6, and would like to suggest the Convoy line of lights.

I have both the S2, and the S2+. The + has a newer, more efficient emitter, so for the extra $2 or so, get the + version, although you can't go wrong with either. With a small reflector and relatively large emitter, the beam is bright, and floody, which is generally better for up close work out to about 100 feet or so. I really like them for general purpose, and camping lights.

This weekend four of us went camping. Each had an 18650 light, the $109 light failed, while the solarforce (with a XML2 @ 2.8A) ~$25, Convoy C8 ~ $17, and the convoy S2+ ~ $17, all worked perfectly. Like mark stated, 2 good batteries, and a charger will cost nearly $40, but you can't go wrong with the Convoy line.
Failed?
Do tell please.
 

Poppy

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Failed?
Do tell please.

Went to the campfire, and the light wouldn't turn on. The electronics, IE the driver is integrated in the tail-cap switches. If I jumper the battery neg to the body of the light the LED lights fully, but there are no modes.

I wrote to the company, and they appear ready to send me a new switch.
 

WarRaven

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Went to the campfire, and the light wouldn't turn on. The electronics, IE the driver is integrated in the tail-cap switches. If I jumper the battery neg to the body of the light the LED lights fully, but there are no modes.

I wrote to the company, and they appear ready to send me a new switch.
Crappy timing.
What light was that?

Edit to add, at that price, it couldn't have been either of the two lights asked about here, Fenix is more then the other and far under a hundred. Just so any ambiguity is cleared up for op and quality of the lights. Unless a slight embellishment.
 
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Poppy

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Crappy timing.
What light was that?

Edit to add, at that price, it couldn't have been either of the two lights asked about here, Fenix is more then the other and far under a hundred. Just so any ambiguity is cleared up for op and quality of the lights. Unless a slight embellishment.

Yeah... poor timing, but not terrible :thumbsup:
It was the first time that I went to a scouting campfire that ended while there was still light out. And I also had a streamlight penlight as a spare, just in case.

The point I wanted to make is that sometimes more expensive lights are not more reliable than lower cost decent quality lights. OR even if they are more reliable they also sometimes fail. IF and when they do fail, it is good to know that you are dealing with a reputable company. In this case it is Thrunite, and their TN11S. I see that they now offer it as TN11S V2 with the XML2 emitter and an updated control system, (oh... and at half the price!). At any rate, the fit and finish is excellent, and they are sending me a new switch, despite the fact that mine is nearly three years old. Customer service is often as important as the product itself.

It seems to me that the disparity in prices of decent quality lights, is getting smaller, IE the well known brand prices are dropping, and the lesser known (but still quality) are coming up a little, also there are more lower cost light brands that offer decent quality. Examples, Convoy, roche, eagle eyes. Hopefully this trend will continue and we'll see less and less junk out there.
 

ShaggyDog

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Are you comfortable using Li-Ion cells?

I honestly haven't really thought too much about what type of cells to use yet, any of the lights I've used in the past have always just been with alkaline disposables but that's something obviously I'm keen to move away from.

I had a look at the Convoy and that looks like a very good starting point though I'm still keen to hear about some other alternatives if you guys have any recommendations.
 

WarRaven

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Right on Poppy.

👍
I've only read about one broken Fenix, turns out may just need cleaning, same as a lower costing unit, everything needs TLC at times.
No, I'm not really looking for every failure, just that it's rare as hens teeth these days.
 

Chicken Drumstick

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I honestly haven't really thought too much about what type of cells to use yet, any of the lights I've used in the past have always just been with alkaline disposables but that's something obviously I'm keen to move away from.

I had a look at the Convoy and that looks like a very good starting point though I'm still keen to hear about some other alternatives if you guys have any recommendations.
Battery tech is important, and sadly far too many people still don't understand much about the different offerings.

The reality is, unless you really have to, never use alkaline (for pretty much anything). They are dreadful, worst they have a high tendency to leak completely ruining whatever they are in. And not only that, in high powered applications like torches (and digital cameras) they simply don't perform very well.

Making a choice on what battery type you want to use is important, as it will then dictate what torches are on offer.

Your main choices are:

-Lithium primaries, either AA, AAA or CR123a. Can be pricey if you buy off the shelf in Tesco or similar, but not too bad if you buy off places like ebay. The AA/AAA will be Energiser Lithium and several brands of CR123a. The advantage with these is, they don't leak, have a great shelf life, offer brilliant performance over alkalines and work well in the cold. Only downside is they are throw away, so can get costly if you use the torch a lot. But are ideal for a backup torch that you might keep in a car.

-NiMh rechargeable. Now there are a couple of types of NiMH, the one you want is the Low Self Discharge variety, these will hold 70% of their charge for 3 years. Which makes them very useful. Non LSD ones might go flat in 2 weeks or less without you using them at all. If in doubt, buy Sanyo Eneloops. They are generally seen as the best and not bad to buy. NiMh doesn't leak and also offers great performance too for high amp draws. And also doesn't mind the cold. Runtimes might be lower (depending on actual use), but being rechargeable makes them a good choice.

-Li-ion. Many people are not familiar with Li-ion, although it's been a mainstay in the mobile phone and laptop world for some time. The big difference here is, they are 4.2v vs 1.2-1.5v for the other battery types. This means they have a lot more energy/punch and will give higher performance. The only downside is, they are potentially more volatile and dangerous. However you need to weigh this against other risks. Li-ion is no worse than handling petrol, which many of us do regularly. You just need to be careful, give respect and don't be stupid.

If you plan to go Li-ion, then you'll need a quality charger (many crap ones about), and you'll want quality batteries, again there are many really crap ones about, avoid any battery that says Ultrafire or similar on it.

You'll also want a Digital Multi Meter, these cost about £5 off ebay, so no reason not to get one.




As far as torches go. Led Lensers are fine, but a tad pricey for what they are. On here they take a bit of stick, but it's usually unfounded IMO. But it is true, you can get more brightness and for less money, but that doesn't necessarily mean better. I have several Led Lenser type lights and I think they are all very good and if you plan to avoid Li-ion, then they are very good performers.

If you want to try out Led Lenser, you can buy one here:
https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10003915/1675300-p7-2-9407-1-r5-2-mode-240lm-zoom-cool-white-led

About £20 with free postage. They work very well on NiMh and I'm sure you'll be impressed with how good it is.

For AA/AAA use, Maglite are another candidate, but frankly they are massively over priced in the UK. If you lived in the USA then they are quire viable, but over here I'd opt to avoid at UK retail prices.


Of course there are plenty of other AA/AAA options out there and with a lot of price variance. For something pocket friendly and a good starting point, the Xeno E03 is quite nice:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XENO-Tige...664?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item234d566000

And you probably won't believe how small it is.


As I've just posted a link to the Xeno, something to note is LED emitter type and tint.

When people first start out, they often get bamboozled with some of the names and marketing lies.

But you really need to know what is what.

Cree make LEDs and not torches. At the moment the two most common LEDs you'll see from Cree will be the XM-L2 and the XP-G2.

The XM-L2 is a large LED, it makes lots of light, but will be more floody.
The XP-G2 is a smaller LED, not quite as bright, but because it is smaller it will throw a beam further, i.e. will light stuff up further away.

And don't get too hung up on lumen output. Lumens are a bit like torque with cars. It doesn't really tell you how it will perform. And buying the most lumens might not give you the best performance.

As far as lumen output goes, many Chinese vendors completely lie. A single XM-L2 will make 700-1000 lumens or so. If you see claims higher than this, then they are likely lying.

An XP-G2 is in the 300-600 lumen range (but remember will throw better than the XM-L2).


Tint is the next important thing. Many cheap lights have dreadful tint, usually a harsh cool white often tinged with blue, purple or green. Personally I think tint is the most important thing, way more important than output, as no matter what mode you use the light on, you can always see the tint. A nice Neutral White (NW) tint will generally be more pleasant on the eye, have better colour rendition and look so much nicer, especially if you are out camping or in the countryside. Cool White (CW) will tend to make the greens and browns of trees and grass go a sort of colourless grey.




As for li-ion lights. I would recommend starting with the 18650 size. Very good output, but small enough to fit in your pocket. With li-ion there is a lot to learn, so I won't try and teach it all in one post. But 18650 lights are hugely versatile and great place to begin.

I too would promote buying Convoy lights. For the price and quality they are very hard to beat. The likes of Fenix and Nitecore, there is nothing wrong with them, but they are expensive IMO.

Generally torches/flashlights fall into the "premium" category, the likes of Fenix and budget, such as Convoy. Now there are a lot of really rubbish budget lights, but also a great deal of really good ones.

And with the premium lights, well they are a bit like buying a BMW. You often only buy them for the name and image. Rarely do they actually out perform cheaper offerings, often not as good even. The only main difference with premium lights, is usually the User Interface (UI). Budget lights tend to have fairly simply UI's, while many premium lights have quite advanced UI's. This is the only real difference.

Also oddly enough many premium lights can only be bought in horrid CW tints. But some of them are starting to learn.


As for the Convoy lights, I can highly recommend the S2+

I would buy it from here:
http://www.banggood.com/Convoy-S2-Red-Cree-XML2-71358-5-Modes-EDC-LED-Flashlight-p-964149.html


When buying any Convoy light, aside from the model you want, you need to know two other things:

-driver
-LED tint


Tint, I explained above. To help out a bit you might see something like XM-L2 U2-1A

XM-L2 = the type of LED
U2 = the brightness bin. Cree categorise the LEDs into different outputs. A word of warning, by eye you'll be hard pressed to see any difference. And as a rule the best tints can't be had in the brightest output bin. So don't get too hung up on it.
1A = the tint bin.

I would recommend as first time purchase you opt for the XM-L2 T6-3B, this is a very nice NW tint to try out.


Driver, LED's typically need a driver of some kind, to set the modes and to dictate the output levels. All of the Convoy lights use the same type of driver with the same modes. The differences are how many 7135 chips the driver uses. The more chips the brighter. However the brighter the hotter it gets and the quicker it uses your battery up on High.

If you need to turn a light on and use it constantly for 40mins +, then a lower spec driver will work better. If you will only use it for shorter periods of time, say 5 mins at a time, then the high output driver will be fine.

Remember you have 3 output modes on all drivers, so you can lower the output, but the modes are percentage of max, so all modes will be lower output on the lower spec drivers.

The 8*7135 driver (meaning it uses eight 7135 chips) is the brightest. And still very usable. This will give output similar to the Fenix and Nitecore lights you mention.
 

radiopej

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Wow, as I read that post I'd keep thinking "ooh, I would add this" and then he goes and says it. Very well put :)

I'd also suggest looking at Solarforce lights. You can change the LED+driver (called a drop-in) easily to basically make it a completely different light.
 

Poppy

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Driver, LED's typically need a driver of some kind, to set the modes and to dictate the output levels. All of the Convoy lights use the same type of driver with the same modes. The differences are how many 7135 chips the driver uses. The more chips the brighter. However the brighter the hotter it gets and the quicker it uses your battery up on High.

If you need to turn a light on and use it constantly for 40mins +, then a lower spec driver will work better. If you will only use it for shorter periods of time, say 5 mins at a time, then the high output driver will be fine.

Remember you have 3 output modes on all drivers, so you can lower the output, but the modes are percentage of max, so all modes will be lower output on the lower spec drivers.

The 8*7135 driver (meaning it uses eight 7135 chips) is the brightest. And still very usable. This will give output similar to the Fenix and Nitecore lights you mention.

Chicken Drumstick,
You da MAN!!! Great job!

The only thing I would like to add is that each 7135 chip adds 350ma to the driver, so 4*7135 = 1400ma, 6*7135= 2100ma, and 8*7135 = 2800ma

Again... great post!
 

ShaggyDog

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Thanks for that post Chicken Drumstick, it was *incredibly* helpful and just the kind of information I needed. Well it looks like that Convoy is the way to go so I'll get one of those ordered and look forward to it arriving. You mentioned the Led Lenser P7.2 in your post and that was actually one of the torches I'd been looking at seeing if I could find it for a good price here in the UK and the Fenix LD09 was another.

As for batteries I'll start with the NiMh. Do you have any reccomendations for a good budget charger?
 

Chicken Drumstick

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The best price I've seen on the P7.2 is the one from FastTech. They don't list it as a Led Lenser, but people who have bought say it comes with all the Led Lenser branding. Led Lenser's are made in China, so I suspect it's genuine or at least from the same factory that the genuine ones are from. Link is my earlier post.


You say you've ordered a Convoy, remember all Convoy's are Li-ion powered, they don't sell anything that runs on NiMh.

For Li-ion, have a look at Xtar chargers, usually plenty on ebay. They are as a rule good quality without being too pricey.

As for NiMh, I like Sanyo Eneloop batteries. They sell a number of chargers that come with batteries (think I got mine from Amazon). Maybe not the cheapest, but they offer a smart charger which charges each battery individually and allows fast charging on a pair if you want.

I have a couple of the "Sanyo MQR06-E-4-3UTG"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003MPI9LW/

I think this one comes with a Euro plug, so you'll need a universal travel adapter to plug it into a UK socket, although some of these chargers come with the proper adapter included. The proper one clips on and replaces the Euro one.
 

Ethan_90

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I just got the dgq 18650, and it seems ok. Its the smallest 18650 light and only $26. I bought a nitecore battery and charger combo for under $20. That might be a cheap and good route to go.
 

more_vampires

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As for batteries I'll start with the NiMh. Do you have any reccomendations for a good budget charger?

AA/AAA sized gold standard here on CPF is the glorious Eneloop NiMH rechargeable. Eneloop brand chargers also exist. They are slow-cookers and don't strain the cells upon charging one bit. Never had a single problem with these things. (Well, at least it wasn't the battery's fault. It was mine.)

Low self discharge, some of the best capacities in the business.... I guess the only downside is they don't cook you dinner and give you a kiss.

Once I "Eneloop-ed" everything, I gave away all my other NiMH. Can't go wrong with the best.
 
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