Cars, Man

[alpg88]

Ford's choice is simple business. They don't see value in investing in vehicles where the per vehicle profit is so low. .

there isn't, you are right, because people choose Honda and Toyota over ford, and you are correct about profit margins, uaw makes them smaller and smaller. and even guaranteed flees sales do not help.

 

[alpg88]

i used to work in a body shop, used to deal a lot with dealers parts and service dept, idk why but gm\ford\dodge were the worst ones to deal with, bunch of lazy, incompetent bodies. can't even call them mechanics. that is a large part of the reason i have not gotten any domestic cars in 15 years or so. their crappy resale value, thus higher lease price is another

 

[idleprocess]

Performed an informal survey of vehicles on the road the past couple of days on the return leg of my commute. SUV-esque vehicles (which will include crossovers and minivans) seemed more common than sedans. Of the trucks on the road, some 90% looked to be lifestyle trucks - fullsize quadcab shortbed; and I discounted those that were clearly utility vehicles with racks, camper shells, serious-looking loads in the bed, hauling utility trailers. Knowing that crossovers and SUVs command a multi-$K premium over the sedan whose platforms they generally share and that a lifestyle truck retails for something close to $50k, small wonder that the Big 3 have focused so heavily on that segment of the market.

 

[StarHalo]

- GM is doing excellent; its stock has gone soaring over the last couple of years, and they're a major recipient of the recent tax cut which has added handsomely to their coffers. These layoffs should in theory be hitting the reset button on a significant portion of their car lineup to get it more in line with everyone else, but we'll see.

- Everyone wants SUVs; the best selling Porsche is the Cayenne SUV, that's why even the Italian carmakers you would never associate with trucks are now also introducing SUVs. Hip height and visibility sells better than swoopy rooflines.

My parents owned a broad variety of American cars for many years, lumbering sedans and wagons that drove like the body panels hung about a foot outside of where the wheels were, like a truck despite there being nothing truck-like in the construction. My mom eventually got a mid-90's Camry from that golden age financial bubble of Japanese cars, which was like alien technology compared to anything we'd owned before, or was currently offered, with an American badge. And the American manufacturers were okay with that for many years; Honda introduced the Civic Si, Chevy added more chrome to the Cavalier. Toyota introduced the Avalon, Ford just let the clock run out on the Crown Victoria. etc. The US caught up long after it was too late, and in fairness the last few American cars I drove aren't notably different in quality from the Japanese cars, but they also don't have any particular character - you could cover the badges and sit in the interior, and there'd be no indication that it's an American car. Korean maybe? It's not clear..

Should also mention, Oldsmobile's last gasp offerings were the best cars GM would make for many years, which is a shame that they didn't try them sooner; the sedans were basically just copies of Toyotas but with bigger engines, which is precisely the formula Buick arrived at years later.

 

[alpg88]

lol what last oldsmobile do you have in mind? 88ls\lss with it's 3800 series 2 that had leaky manifold gasket at 70k? and transmission that went at 100k or sooner in 80% cases? even more problematic the one with SC. what else, aurora? nope, its v8 is less reliable than the northstar, their 3.5 had overheat issues in aurora and intrigue, alero was most problem free car. but it was nothing special midsize sedan, my coworker still drives one, but it does not even come close to accord of the same year, in terms of driving dynamics, room, road feel, resale value.

 

[Monocrom]

because they are not unionized nearly as much. Honda wont let unions on their property, and Toyota closed its only union factory in 2009. good riddance i say.

Unions are necessary. Keeps Management from becoming corrupt. Problem is, you need the right type of people in charge of those unions or, the unions become corrupt. When that happens, Management becomes the hero for finding ways not to deal with them. Who knows, perhaps rightly so. Perhaps. But that's all I'll say about Unions from now on.

 

[Monocrom]

.. You are basically agreeing with me. 10+ years ago, Japanese cars were better. That is no longer the case.

Did you have a V6 in that Mazda 6? .... What year? The first generation Mazda 6, V6, which was super reliable, was a FORD engine.

I really don't see how i'm agreeing with you. Japanese cars are still better today. Even today, car magazine writers and editors give the same advice. "Buy a Toyota or a Honda if you primarily care about reliability and durability." Sorry, but that advice has not changed.

Mine is a 2009 Mazda 6 V6. And I did a staggering amount of research before picking that car with that engine option. I spent 11 months researching every car that had peaked my interest as a replacement for my 1998 Ford Escort (A rebadged Mazda Protege by the way). That sweet V6 is Japanese.

 

[idleprocess]

Unions are necessary. Keeps Management from becoming corrupt. Problem is, you need the right type of people in charge of those unions or, the unions become corrupt. When that happens, Management becomes the hero for finding ways not to deal with them. Who knows, perhaps rightly so. Perhaps. But that's all I'll say about Unions from now on.

Having lived on both sides of the equation, I generally agree. I will say that having spent more time being paid by the hour than salaried that's it's infuriating what seniority-as-the-only-metric does to one's motivation in a union shop.

 

[StarHalo]

lol what last oldsmobile do you have in mind?

Design, not reliability; reliability is not a fair comparison in any era.

 

[MeMeMe]

no, you completely twisted his statement.
pretty clear he meant there are not many old domestic cars around, cuz by that time they turn into junk not worth fixing, imports otoh keep on ticking even if they have rust holes.

there is absolutely nothing in his quoted post suggesting older imports were better than newer ones.

No I didn't. 10-15 years ago, Japanese cars had an edge in reliability and longevity. That there are lots of 10-15 year old Japanese cars shows that to be true ... but often that can come down to regional difference as well.

Imports don't keep on ticking any better than North American branded cars any more. German cars have NEVER ticked along better, there were just a lot more of the same model.

 

[StarHalo]

Ferrari leaves the new 812 Superfast's taillights inset for Chauncey; also includes a 9000 rpm V12, 70 to 150 mph in under 10 seconds..

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

:hahaha:

Ferrari leaves the new 812 Superfast's taillights inset for Chauncey; also includes a 9000 rpm V12, 70 to 150 mph in under 10 seconds..

:laughing:


Mamma mea! That's a spicy meatball!

~ Chauncey

 

[alpg88]

Design, not reliability; reliability is not a fair comparison in any era.

what about Oldsmobile design? all of them except few in 80s had lame boring design. all of oldsmobilles were rebadged buicks, pontiacs, and chevys.

and yes reliability is the most fair comparison, it is objective, design otoh is subjective, resale values are based on long term reliability ratings, not design.

just ask Monocrom, he did not spend 11 month researching design, but reliability.

 

[Monocrom]

just ask Monocrom, he did not spend 11 month researching design, but reliability.

I must say, she'll hit the decade mark in February.
Very few issues, very few headaches.
Not too much money spent on maintenance.
Never left me stranded. Never refused to start up.

 

[alpg88]

Imports don't keep on ticking any better than North American branded cars any more. German cars have NEVER ticked along better, there were just a lot more of the same model.

well i was gonna post how wrong you are and how i see opposite from what you saying on actual roads, but i realized, what i see in nyc is not same as i see in upstate ny.

when i drive 100+ miles away from new york city, i see a lot more old cars, americans and Japanese. in nyc over 50% are new cars, 1-3 years old, upstate, i only see 5% of new cars, most of those new are trucks, suv. Germans are different story. mb and bmw are not that reliable, but people fix them anyway, since it's a luxury cars. audi not so much, and vw is junk after 10 years.

 

[StarHalo]

Clarifying again: Near-death Olds simply copied Toyota, which produced the best aesthetic and dynamic design that would be made at GM until their other marques did the same much later. One look at the Aurora interior tells you that this car has nothing to do with anything American-made at the time, but it's a remarkably solid Toyota facsimile:

 

[alpg88]

i had 1994 aurora worst car ever made. more problems than any other car i had, more electrical issues than old seville and yugo combined. absolutely nothing in common with any toyota.
and this is coming from a guy who at one time only drove Oldsmobiles, i had 1985 cutlass cierra, 1988 delta 88, 1994 aurora, 1996 ls. and friends of mine had accords, maximas, Camrys. not to mention 2 years work in auto repair shop. so i can compare things, but after i got brand new 2006 accord v6 , i never looked at domestics again. i have to agree that up to late 90s used American cars were cheaper to fix, cost cheaper to buy, thus more popular on used market, but their reliability was not as good as Japanese cars.
if anything it actually declined for Japanese cars over time, my 09 and 13 accords build quality was not as good, uneven gaps, cheaper materials, some features that were standard, became options, but it did not affect reliability much.
actually from experience of driving Honda and Hyundai for many years, i say Hyundai are better than Honda now. i'm generally happy with my 2018 honda pilot, but brother in law's Santa fe is build better. feels more expensive, rides smoother, but pilot is bigger, burns less gas, and has more powerful engine, my brother in law has long one with 3,3l v6.

 

[StarHalo]

i had 1994 aurora worst car ever made. more problems than any other car i had, more electrical issues than old seville and yugo combined. absolutely nothing in common with any toyota.

And my response to that was:

Design, not reliability; reliability is not a fair comparison in any era.

So now we've come full circle

if anything it actually declined for Japanese cars over time, my 09 and 13 accords build quality was not as good, uneven gaps, cheaper materials, some features that were standard, became options, but it did not affect reliability much.

The early/mid 90's was the financial bubble in Japan, that was when their cars really peaked; the Toyotas from that era were not much different from the Lexuses, a level of bang for the buck that hasn't been seen since..

 

[alpg88]

And my response to that was:



So now we've come full circle



The early/mid 90's was the financial bubble in Japan, that was when their cars really peaked; the Toyotas from that era were not much different from the Lexuses, a level of bang for the buck that hasn't been seen since..

LOL, yea i know what your response was, and it makes 0 sense to me along with your Oldsmobile is a copy of toyota. lol neither has any basis in realty, i sill would like to see what toyota of mid 90's is olds aurora a copy of.

 

[Need a Light?]

The best Toyota era was late late 80s to about 95-6. The last gen (US available) Cressida was basically a Lexus, and the xv10 (92-96) Camry was slightly higher quality (if comparable overall due to modernity) than the xv20 (97-01).

Agreed though. I have owned two cressidas (89 and 92) in the last five years, and am driving a 97 Camry currently and all have always started no issues.

Funny enough, my dad finally bought his first new car, a '17 accord sport se (4cyl 6 speed), and it has issues with voltage and acceleration. So who knows. Although I guess Toyota has always been a bit more utilitarian and Honda more 'sporty', and the old man is a 'Yota fan as well.