Constant Current incan modes. Why not?!!?

[TinderBox (UK)]

I have one of those old battery manager adaptors, it use 8xAAA in the same dimensions of 2D cells, it gives a regulated constant brightness, it also has soft start to slowly increase the brightness when you turn the light on to reduce shock on the filiment and it flashes the bulb when the battery's are getting low.

it does not have any modes and I don't know if it,'s constant current

John.

 

[Timothybil]

Ok the install a pot in series with the bulb. I wouldn't consider it state of the art driver but will do everything you want
And no it's 60hz. It flips from +~170v to -~170v 120 times a second for an rms voltage of 120v but that's still 60hz

Yes, the A/C power is 60hz. But each one of those 60 cycles per second involves the voltage going from zero - positive max - zero - negative max - zero. Since modern semiconductor dimming circuits start their dimming cycle every time the voltage passes through zero, that results in two dimming cycles per voltage cycle, or 120hz.

 

[fivemega]

I have one of those old battery manager adaptors, it use 8xAAA in the same dimensions of 2D cells, it gives a regulated constant brightness, it also has soft start to slowly increase the brightness when you turn the light on to reduce shock on the filiment and it flashes the bulb when the battery's are getting low.
it does not have any modes and I don't know if it,'s constant current
John.

Did you mean regulated 8AA to 2D?
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?65593-Regulated-8AA-2D-adapter-W-Hunt-S-Langan
It's not constant current or constant voltage.

I offere this item at GB of market place long time ago.
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?62263-Regulated-8AA-to-2D-battery-adapter

 

[TinderBox (UK)]

Did you mean regulated 8AA to 2D?
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?65593-Regulated-8AA-2D-adapter-W-Hunt-S-Langan
It's not constant current or constant voltage.

I offere this item at GB of market place long time ago.
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?62263-Regulated-8AA-to-2D-battery-adapter

Yeah, bcs powerstik is what i have.

I have been running it on an 3Cell maglite bulb instead of the originals, is there any negatives to doing this?

John.

 

[chillinn]

Yeah, bcs powerstik is what i have.

I have been running it on an 3Cell maglite bulb instead of the originals, is there any negatives to doing this?

John.

I never heard of the BCS Powerstick, so I did some googling...

The advantage of the BCS Powerstik lies in -
PWM regulator 3.6V-rms output, so no matter how the battery voltage changes, the lamp brightness throughout the stable.
There is a soft start (Soft Start) function, turn on the lights, the light bulb is gradually brightened from the low light, effectively increase the lamp life.
There is a low voltage warning.
Usually with 8 batteries to drive, if necessary, 4 can also be. (So ​​it's 4 strings and 2)

source

Not sure I believe all that. Seems to be a strangely overengineered accessory. Why didn't they just make their own flashlight?

 

[bykfixer]

So can a "smart" battery fulfill the request?

 

[chillinn]

So can a "smart" battery fulfill the request?

A battery with modes? Yeah, I think it could.

I was reading earlier about Zener diodes and avalanche diodes. They can be used to limit and regulate voltage. So my first crazy thought was, what if instead of a resistor in a two-stage tailcap, somehow an appropriately matched diode was used to limit voltage when half-pressed, or partially twisted in the on position? I really don't know what I'm talking about, but if it works, it would be ironic for a diode to solve the absense of a moded PWM-less solution for incans. I got the idea from an old HKJ post (discussing how to create a secondary RCR123A with the voltage of a primary CR123A):

Use a normal LiIon battery in 16340 size, but add a diode in series with the battery. This will reduce the output voltage with about 0.6 to 0.7 volt. The voltage will be close to CR123, but still too high and the diode will heat the battery at high loads.

 

[Tachead]

Thanks, Kestrel

ssanasisredna, the problem is that you believe these things, concerning PWM rates above 17kHz, even though I am telling you in fact these PWM rates (17.5kHz specifically) caused me to get headaches and migraines. The effect is not instantaneous, but cummulative. There is nothing else in the environment modulating anything, and nothing else to mitigate the plain fact that this is so, and yet, you resist the notion based upon idk what you're talking about, these unreferenced "studies." "Not possible," you irrationally and quite frankly, incorrectly and wrongly believe these falsehoods, even though I am telling you honestly, first person experience here, not something I heard or read about, supposedly, but in fact me the man himself and a source of grievance concerning this menace of a technology telling you in fact PWM rates are indeed actually a real health issue for me and likely many others. "No," you're going to eventually reply. What's the smiley for this?

To avoid the PWM battle and get back on track...

what I have gleaned so far is that the issue is unlike the way the problem is solved with LED, using a constant current, because lamps are voltage controlled. Further, lamps are designed to be efficient and have the ideal color temperature at a certain voltage, and lower voltages will cause efficiency to drop (please confirm), and color temp to dip warmer and yellower. PWM with incan attempts to solve this, but in my experience, and documented elsewhere on CPF by others, there is still tint shift with incan PWM implementation.

Ignoring the efficiency and color temperature issues, if anyone has the patience or inclination, I would not mind a better understanding of how the current is controlled (or not) in a simple incan as the cell voltage drops. What exactly decides what the current is in an incan without a driver? I realize current and voltage are going to be related, but I don't have my head around it.

Lastly, if the efficiency and color temp issues could be ignored or tolerated, by what method could voltage be limited in a couple different stages without pulsing the filiment with PWM or something like PWM?

Your headaches could be psychosomatic or caused by a number of other things. Believe what you want but, your single opinion/belief doesn't overthrow the findings of actual scientific research. If all frequencies of PMW were harmful they would likely be regulated by like you said. Did you ever consider you may actually be causing these headaches by worrying about PWM so much? Do you often eat dark chocolate while staring into your PWM flashlights LED's? I bet if a double blind test was conducted on you with a few different light sources the headaches wouldn't be replicated consistently.

Anyway, until you have some scientific proof, quit trying to force your opinion down peoples throats man. Your single belief is proof of nothing and you're not going to convince everyone to hate PWM. PWM is used in devices all around you everyday and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. You really should stop stressing so much about it(oh the irony considering your name is chillinn) because stress is scientifically proven to be harmful to you:thumbsup:

 

[chillinn]

Oh, fantastic, the PWM fan boi himself, Tachead, stopped by for an offtopic troll. Wonderful, Tachead, but if you can't stay on topic, and if you cannot do anything but post trolls, please, I beg you, do not litter this thread with your intolerable garbage. Thank you.

From the link I provided in post #31 above

Although humans cannot see fluorescent lights flicker, the sensory system in some individuals can somehow detect the flicker. Ever since fluorescent lighting was introduced in workplaces, there have been complaints about headaches, eye strain and general eye discomfort. These complaints have been associated with the light flicker from fluorescent lights. When compared to regular fluorescent lights with magnetic ballasts, the use of high frequency electronic ballasts (20,000 Hz or higher) in fluorescent lights resulted in more than a 50% drop in complaints of eye strain and headaches. There tended to be fewer complaints of headaches among workers on higher floors compared to those closer to ground level; that is, workers exposed to more natural light experienced fewer health effects. [ Fluorescent lighting, headaches and eye-strain. A. J. Wilkins, I. Nimmo-Smith, I., A. Slater & L. Bedocs. Lighting Research and Technology, 1989. Vol. 21, 11-18]

Many people experience pain due to the effects of flickering lighting, including PWM. There is a mountain of scientific evidence, as well as the evidence of the testimony of those it effects. Strobe lighting is used as a weapon, yet there is still a lie-spewing holdout, an absurd clown-troll-thing, that insists on believing incorrect and false things, such as that PWM has no detrimental health effects, and insists arguing about what is plain as day to rational individuals.

The topic is not PWM nor its poor health effects, but looking for a path to a constant light output for moded incan, to reveal an effecient way to reduce the voltage to the lamp without utilizing PWM.

 

[ssanasisredna]

Whether you use a capacitor as a storage element or a hot wire really does not matter now does it? The result is exactly the same, constant light at least with Incan.

Of course there is the chemical storage element in the eye too ..

 

[bykfixer]

I get a headache everytime I whack my head with a hammer.

Is there scientific proof replete with graphs n charts?
I dunno, but I do know from trial and error it happens everytime. I also know it's completely irrelevant to this thread.
So....

As entertaining as a good geek spat can be can we please get this train back on the tracks toward constant current in an incan flashlight?
PWM with a filament sounds like a recipe for short lifespan'd light bulbs.
I kinda figured this thread was about keeping a bulb as bright as possible in a more consistant amount, without the typical dimming that takes place as the fuel cell depletes...
Hence my comment about smart batteries.

Good topic Chillin. Perhaps if those uber efficient bulbs MIT and some Koreans in lab coats are working on become reality, by then someone will have a way to regulate the output.

 

[Kestrel]

In my grumpy old age I am less inclined to sift through threads to delete the personally-argumentative posts and to clean the thread up via edits - it is more time efficient just to close a thread if it has outlived its purpose.
I think the points about PWM have been made and we can move forward on the thread topic as a whole. Thank you,

 

[bykfixer]

^^ Love the friendly green font in that post. lol. Does that make it a "frumpy" post?

If they could send a man to the moon using direct current in the 1960's (if you believe them lol) then certainly somebody could provide a constant flow to a light bulb using direct current.

 

[chillinn]

PWM with a filament sounds like a recipe for short lifespan'd light bulbs.

Can't say either way, but I do know softstart is an implementation of something like PWM, but ramping the lamp up slowly, and the effect is lamps lasting longer (at least this is how it is advertised). But after the filiment reaches it's ideal temperature, I wonder if PWM pulsing is worse for its lifespan than a constant applied voltage.

I have experienced strange things with PWM and cells. When I use a primary in my E1e with the stock or any mechanical tailcap, I can use that cell until it is close to 1.5v or less before the filiment won't light at all. When I use Lightsaver tailcap with PWM, I may get the same runtimes, but the cell will get to a point that it won't fire the lamp with any tailcap, yet still read 2.85V resting. This concerns me for my use of more expensive secondary cells with the Lightsaver, though I haven't seen any odd behavior from my secondary cells yet. Obviously I am not depleting my secondary cells entirely, but recharging whenever the voltage is below 3.6V.

I kinda figured this thread was about keeping a bulb as bright as possible in a more consistant amount, without the typical dimming that takes place as the fuel cell depletes...
Hence my comment about smart batteries.

...which lead to my personal discovery of Zener and avalanche diodes, which I am hoping someone that knows electrics can discuss regarding my suggestion of tailcapping one instead of a resistor...

Good topic Chillin. Perhaps if those uber efficient bulbs MIT and some Koreans in lab coats are working on become reality, by then someone will have a way to regulate the output.

That will be sweet with... was it 40% efficiency? It will be "so long LED!!" And then some of the better flashlight manufacturers will be reading this thread trying to figure out how to run moded lamps without PWM so they can advertise their lights are superior.

 

[ssanasisredna]

That will be sweet with... was it 40% efficiency? It will be "so long LED!!" And then some of the better flashlight manufacturers will be reading this thread trying to figure out how to run moded lamps without PWM so they can advertise their lights are superior.

I guess it would be pointless to point out that:

- That was highly specific lab made thought exercises that achieve 40%
- That they no longer have a blackbody spectrum, so while the underlying tech is "hot wire" they output spectrum is not
- Similar to advanced halogen, they don't like to be dimmed ... you can, but then lose efficiency/life advantages
- They still have poor life
- That LEDs are already >60% .... production, not in the lab
- That they last 100K+ hours maintaining high output

I don't think anybody making LED anything is losing any sleep over "incandescent" technology. This LED thing is just a fad after all.

... and no, no MFR of INCAN will be "reading this thread trying to figure out how to run without PWM" as either A) They will just use PWM or B) they know that there are millions of engineers who can do that in their sleep.

 

[Tachead]

I guess it would be pointless to point out that:

- That was highly specific lab made thought exercises that achieve 40%
- That they no longer have a blackbody spectrum, so while the underlying tech is "hot wire" they output spectrum is not
- Similar to advanced halogen, they don't like to be dimmed ... you can, but then lose efficiency/life advantages
- They still have poor life
- That LEDs are already >60% .... production, not in the lab
- That they last 100K+ hours maintaining high output

I don't think anybody making LED anything is losing any sleep over "incandescent" technology. This LED thing is just a fad after all.

... and no, no MFR of INCAN will be "reading this thread trying to figure out how to run without PWM" as either A) They will just use PWM or B) they know that there are millions of engineers who can do that in their sleep.

He is talking about this...

http://news.mit.edu/2016/nanophotonic-incandescent-light-bulbs-0111

It says that most commercial LED's only have a 5-20% energy to light efficiency where as these new Nanophotonic incandescents could achieve up to 40% through light recycling.

 

[chillinn]

I guess it would be pointless to point out

Not pointless. Pointful, actually.

- That LEDs are already >60% .... production, not in the lab

The most efficient LEDs don't create the highest quality light. Where the efficiency advancement matters most is in phosphors for best color rendering, and the trend appears to be that the efficiency of the best LEDs for color rendering lag a decent ways behind the most efficient LEDs.

I don't think anybody making LED anything is losing any sleep over "incandescent" technology. This LED thing is just a fad after all.

Fair enough, but LED tech is rapidly approaching theoretical max efficiency. There's just a few more more years of innovation left, and then you can stick a fork in LED advancement. Incan tech, unless it be for heating (which it seems to be more efficient at than lighting), appears to be all unconquered territory ripe for decades or another century's worth of advancement. Smart engineers will want job security, and will see LED advancement as finished once it approaches its theoretical max efficiency, and will abandon further LED research as pointless, instead opting for the endless opportunity in incan advancement. Hang on to your LED flashlights as they will be collectors museum pieces soon enough, relics from a less elegant age when people just endured poor lighting simply because it was more efficient than quality lighting.

... and no, no MFR of INCAN will be "reading this thread trying to figure out how to run without PWM" as either A) They will just use PWM or B) they know that there are millions of engineers who can do that in their sleep.

Pardon my misunderstanding, but do what in their sleep? And you never know, maybe some who've already posted on the thread will go on to be the next great American incan flashlight manufacturer. :rock:

He is talking about this...

http://news.mit.edu/2016/nanophotonic-incandescent-light-bulbs-0111

It says that most commercial LED's only have a 5-20% energy to light efficiency where as these new Nanophotonic incandescents could achieve up to 40% through light recycling.

Thanks for posting that and totally redeeming yourself in the end. I almost went looking for it again, but you saved me the trouble.

 

[Tachead]

Not pointless. Pointful, actually.





The most efficient LEDs don't create the highest quality light. Where the efficiency advancement matters most is in phosphors for best color rendering, and the trend appears to be that the efficiency of the best LEDs for color rendering lag a decent ways behind the most efficient LEDs.



Fair enough, but LED tech is rapidly approaching theoretical max efficiency. There's just a few more more years of innovation left, and then you can stick a fork in LED advancement. Incan tech, unless it be for heating (which it seems to be more efficient at than lighting), appears to be all unconquered territory ripe for decades or another century's worth of advancement. Smart engineers will want job security, and will see LED advancement as finished once it approaches its theoretical max efficiency, and will abandon further research as pointless, instead opting for the endless opportunity in incan advancement. Hang on to your LED flashlights as they will be collectors museum pieces soon enough, relics from a less elegant age when people just endured poor lighting simply because it was more efficient than quality lighting.



Pardon my misunderstanding, but do what in their sleep? And you never know, maybe some who've already posted on the thread will go on to be the next great American incan flashlight manufacturer. :rock:

Theoretical - Existing only in theory; hypothetical.

I wouldn't put too much faith in theory, it is after all just an educated guess and theories have been consistently proven wrong over and over again throughout history. No one really knows what the future of lighting technology will bring.

 

[ssanasisredna]

Chillin,

I do not think you have adequate knowledge for us to have this discussion. I think you will have a more realistic position once you gain that knowledge. There is lots on CPF and if you ask questions you will get honest answers.

You are trying to promote a position to people who are essentially experts who are trying to tell you reality. We don't have a "position" other than facts.

 

[Tachead]

Not pointless. Pointful, actually.




The most efficient LEDs don't create the highest quality light. Where the efficiency advancement matters most is in phosphors for best color rendering, and the trend appears to be that the efficiency of the best LEDs for color rendering lag a decent ways behind the most efficient LEDs.




Fair enough, but LED tech is rapidly approaching theoretical max efficiency. There's just a few more more years of innovation left, and then you can stick a fork in LED advancement. Incan tech, unless it be for heating (which it seems to be more efficient at than lighting), appears to be all unconquered territory ripe for decades or another century's worth of advancement. Smart engineers will want job security, and will see LED advancement as finished once it approaches its theoretical max efficiency, and will abandon further LED research as pointless, instead opting for the endless opportunity in incan advancement. Hang on to your LED flashlights as they will be collectors museum pieces soon enough, relics from a less elegant age when people just endured poor lighting simply because it was more efficient than quality lighting.




Pardon my misunderstanding, but do what in their sleep? And you never know, maybe some who've already posted on the thread will go on to be the next great American incan flashlight manufacturer. :rock:






Thanks for posting that and totally redeeming yourself in the end. I almost went looking for it again, but you saved me the trouble.

No problem. Just so you know, I am not a PWM fanboy by the way. I actually hate visible PWM and generally avoid lights with PWM. I just don't believe that all frequencies of PWM are harmful.