E bus fleet out of commission in cold

[jtr1962]

It could have been avoided if they installed a gas supplemental heating for batteries, but that would expose the fallacy behind the whole movement, and how unrealistic it is in today's world.

Or just use a built-in heat pump to heat the batteries while they're charging. Once the bus is in use, the resistance of the batteries while passing current should keep them warm enough.

Sounds like the designers of the bus just didn't consider very low temperatures. As an EE, I know there's actually a so-called automotive temperature range (-40°C to 125°C) which many chips are designed for. It makes sense then to make sure all components of an EV can handle at least the low end of that range. The high end is mostly for parts under the hood in close proximity to the engine, not the ambient temps the vehicle might encounter.

 

[alpg88]

Those buses may not have been build for that market, I have little doubt designers knew what they were doing, but those who bought them did not , or did not care.

 

[raggie33]

I still say wasted heat in the process to heat the cells.

 

[alpg88]

there is no wasted heat there, at least not nearly enough to heat anything

 

[raggie33]

There has to be unless the motor is 100 percent efficient

 

[alpg88]

Yea motors make some heat, but just for argument sake, motor makes 5 000 btu of heat. a battery requires 200 000 btu to get from -30c to minimum spec temp.

 

[xxo]

I still say wasted heat in the process to heat the cells.

Heat from the motor and brakes is generated by energy from the battery and is not enough to keep the battery warm. You could use a heater to keep the battery warm enough to operate, but again, this is energy used up from the battery which will reduce the range. You are also going to lose range do to the poor efficiency of the battery chemistry in cold temperatures, increased friction in the drive train plus you have to draw off more energy to heat the inside of the bus for the driver and passengers.

The bigger problem is charging. In cold temps you not only have to charge slower but you need to charge more frequently due to the reduced range; which means that your buses are likely to be charging when you need them to be running. And in freezing temps you can't charge safely at all unless you have some way of preheating the battery.

 

[jtr1962]

Also you would need to move the heat from the motor to the battery, which isn't a trivial task.

 

[raggie33]

Dang perhaps heated garages may help I'd assume underload the cells will be warm enough?

 

[xxo]

I'd assume underload the cells will be warm enough?

not unless your battery is too small to begin with. if you have a battery big enough to give good range, your cells are not going to heat up much. heating the battery compartment is doable since it is not too big and can be well insulated but heating the huge inside of the poorly insulated (glass/aluminum) passenger compartment of the bus while you are losing heat both from the cold and the wind when the bus is moving is going to drain a lot of battery power.

 

[jtr1962]

not unless your battery is too small to begin with. if you have a battery big enough to give good range, your cells are not going to heat up much. heating the battery compartment is doable since it is not too big and can be well insulated but heating the huge inside of the poorly insulated (glass/aluminum) passenger compartment of the bus while you are losing heat both from the cold and the wind when the bus is moving is going to drain a lot of battery power.

Insulating the battery compartment is a double-edged sword. Sure, it's beneficial in colder weather, but it's the last thing you need when it's hot. In that case, you probably need liquid cooling to keep battery temps reasonable in an insulated compartment in hot weather. Not a show stopper, but it does add somewhat to cost and complexity.

As for passenger compartments, insulating with aerogel might be the ticket if it's cost effective. And having double-pane windows.

 

[alpg88]

Or maybe we should use tech that works, and keep improving new tech to the reliability,practicality level of the old, before implementing, and most important part keep politics out of it,

 

[alpg88]

Insulating the battery compartment is a double-edged sword.

quite the opposite. insulated box can be either cooled or heated depending on internal temp, and not be affected by outside temp.

 

[jtr1962]

quite the opposite. insulated box can be either cooled or heated depending on internal temp, and not be affected by outside temp.

Yes, but that implies the heating system can also cool. Easy with a heat pump. Any other mode of heating requires a separate cooling system, be it fans, liquid cooling, whatever.

Or maybe we should use tech that works, and keep improving new tech to the reliability,practicality level of the old, before implementing, and most important part keep politics out of it,

Any new tech always has teething problems. Designers need to get familiar with it. Electric buses are just starting to show up. NYC has a few, presumably to iron out the issues before converting the entire fleet in the next decade or so. That's all we're seeing here.

None of us were around then to see it, but ICE vehicles had a sh*t ton of problems when they were first rolled out. We didn't give up on them. We fixed them one by one. We're doing the same now with EVs.

 

[alpg88]

None of us were around then to see it, but ICE vehicles had a sh*t ton of problems when they were first rolled out. We didn't give up on them. We fixed them one by one. We're doing the same now with EVs.

I have no problems with that, however i do have a huge problem when this is being mandated against my will, without any consideration if it works for me or not, figuratively speaking.
Not to mention those times and today are incomparable, back then cars were luxury for extremely small minority, today they are necessity for majority

 

[alpg88]

Yes, but that implies the heating system can also cool. Easy with a heat pump. Any other mode of heating requires a separate cooling system, be it fans, liquid cooling, whatever.

there are other ways besides heat pumps, some regions may not need cooling, while others may not need heating, but all of them need insulated enclosure.

 

[jtr1962]

I have no problems with that, however i do have a huge problem when this is being mandated against my will, without any consideration if it works for me or not, figuratively speaking.

Except it's not. Show me one law or proposed law that bans people from owning or driving ICE vehicles. I'll grant we may have such a law at some future date, but only once all the kinks with EVs are worked out such that they work for everyone.

I don't like being forced to breathe polluted air against my will. Or hearing loud engine noise. I'm far from the only one. That's part of the drive for EVs. I love the new Amazon delivery vans for example. They're quieter than most e-bikes.

Not to mention those times and today are incomparable, back then cars were luxury for extremely small minority, today they are necessity for majority

So instead of complaining about so-called EV mandates why don't those like yourself push for government to do something so car ownership is a luxury once again? You mentioned paying over $3K just for insurance. That's a boatload of money. The real problem isn't ICE vehicles, it's the fact so many people own and drive vehicles. If it was instead only a few percent of the population it wouldn't much matter how they're powered. But when everyone does something, otherwise minor problems become big ones.

there are other ways besides heat pumps, some regions may not need cooling, while others may not need heating, but all of them need insulated enclosure.

Problem there is buses always get sold to different operators, often in places with completely different climates. It's better to just design one bus which works in all climates, as opposed to having warm, cold, and temperate climate models. It's not like adding a heat pump which cools/heats the battery costs a huge amount relative to the price of the bus. It probably prolongs battery life more than enough to make up for its additional cost. Ideally you want to keep the battery somewhere in the 15°C to 25°C range for optimal performance and life. Basically if it's comfortable for humans, it's good for the battery.

 

[bykfixer]

I'm sure there was a time in America where horse drawn carriages drove around broken down horseless carriages that broke due to factors the new electric might be dealing with soon or already are. Driver shaking his head "stupid horseless carriage, that'll never work".

Yet back then the market drove the advancement of them not the gubment. No, politicians weren't likely to be campaigning on turd free streets or saying "the horse drawn carriage is causing the destruction of the planet" as they themselves rode around in luxury horse drawn carriages.

This whole notion of "thou shalt commute in an electric vehicle by 2035" is just plain stupid. Little by little the idea is gaining traction. More and more electric bikes and scooters are moving folks from point a to b and the mighty Tesla is gaining market shares. Soon trucks and busses will be too. Someday the electric carriage will out number the horseless carriage.

But like the horse drawn carriage and the horseless carriage, the main method of propulsion of an electric carriage requires feeding. And until someone devises a way to change that fossil fuels will be required to produce the food for the electric carriage. Right now there is nowhere near enough food for the impending volume of them. Not even if everybody shuts off every electric gadget in their home in order to provide enough electricity to feed them.

With apartment complexes being built faster than a Nebraska wildfire the problem is going to be a tremendous burden on those inhabitants. Not to mention the huge strain on the power grid that in some places cannot keep up with the daily needs already.

 

[Monocrom]

Except it's not. Show me one law or proposed law that bans people from owning or driving ICE vehicles. I'll grant we may have such a law at some future date, but only once all the kinks with EVs are worked out such that they work for everyone.

Except the masses, who are mostly living in apartment buildings with no underground garages. And therefore, still won't be able to plug them in; in order to use them. It's like living in a remote cabin, buying a huge Flat Screen TV. The best, most feature-filled, greatest TV model ever created.... Then realizing, there's no place to plug it into. As great as it is, it's useless. Massively HUGE, glaring flaw that isn't being addressed.

Also, sorry but I already pointed out in a different topic why the masses legitimately NEED cars to better their lives. We are not going backwards in history to a point where people were forced to find work within walking distance of their homes. Forced to stay at low-wage jobs because they had no access to cars. Expecting cars to once again become exclusive playthings of the rich is not happening. Never going to happen. And thank God for that! The creation of the Ford Model T bettered the lives of the common man for literally generations.

Again, as mentioned in that other thread; some neighborhoods have little or no access to public transportation. Even neighborhoods in major cities, such as New York. Plus, if the big sticking point is pollution and clean air, private car owners have to service their vehicles to meet emissions standards. Often, strict ones. But guess which vehicles legally are not forced to meet standards remotely as strict. Guess which vehicles are responsible for the vast majority of pollution in big cities.... Public buses with internal combustion engines. You want to reduce pollution, there's your biggest polluter! City officials themselves, thanks to almost no emission standards being imposed on public buses.

EDIT: Clarification.

 

[mrfixitman]

What a ridiculous statement, Of course i do, even if i do not i might have to,.

Gotta do what you gotta do.